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  #11  
Old 12-05-2017
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If it's gonna be a non compatible standard. Why not also change the ATX connector to one without 3,3V and 5V and call it ATX 3.0. Shouldn't be a problem today. For those components who still need 3,3V or 5V you can add DC-DC converters on the motherboard. Like for example the graphics card who uses 3,3V.

Standards after that could slowly get rid of the 3,3V and 5V all together. So that harddrives, opticals and other stuff will be 12V only or they get 3,3V or 5V from the motherboard.

Last edited by -The_Mask-; 12-05-2017 at 05:04 AM.
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  #12  
Old 12-05-2017
GI_Joe GI_Joe is offline
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Why are you & Stefan smoking crack ?

The connector would then still have 24 pins with more empty pins for downward-compatibility.
And for other components, do you wanna get rid of PATA & SATA to drop 3.3V & 5V completely? Google proposed that once to move completely to 19V. Got laughed off for its implications on the IT world.

Do you wanna tell world + dog to throw away all their HDDs & SSDs and by new 12V only ones for example? MBs dont have the space to have a peripheral DCDC stage on them + the space needed for all the connector outs. And that peripheral DCDC stage would be bad in so many ways.

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Old 12-05-2017
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GI_Joe View Post
And for other components, do you wanna get rid of PATA & SATA to drop 3.3V & 5V completely?
Well, tbh, the more I think about it, the more I think that +5V is needed for some reasons like Drives.

But 3,3V isn't really used for any S-ATA drive*. Either they are +5V Only (2,5" drives usually are) or they use +5V and +12V. Havin only +12V would break compatibility in an area where you don't want it to. ALthough 10A max is totally sufficient.

The only thing you want to ban 3,3V from is the Motherboard.

ANd since the new Standard is incompatible anyway, you could define a new ATX connector - one with more +12V and no +3,3V and less +5V.

For some old boards it could be possible to bridge +5V and +3,3V.
At least I've heard some mention of this happen in real life, though there could be some problems.

Since we have many fully modular PSU, it would be entirely possible to design it in a way that adds a +12V to 3,3V DC-DC module to the PSU. Or integrate it into the 'old ATX cable'...

PS: Its the same bullshit with 20+4pin ATX connectors. They are darn annoying and nobody needs it 13 Years later. Especially since the Board not only has to have a 20pin ATX connector but also the space has to be obstructed to be incompatible. And we are talking about ~13 Year old Boards...

*there was one, maybe two series that used the 3,3V. But most do not.
Neither of the 3 Toshibas, two HGST and a couple of WD don't use 3,3V.

Last edited by Stefan Payne; 12-05-2017 at 09:34 AM.
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  #14  
Old 12-05-2017
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GI_Joe View Post
The connector would then still have 24 pins with more empty pins for downward-compatibility.
And for other components, do you wanna get rid of PATA & SATA to drop 3.3V & 5V completely?
No, I will explain it better. You said that there is a big chance that a "true ATX 2.6 PSU" won't be compatible with an older ATX motherboard and vise versa. If that's gonna be true there gonna be a lot off warranty claims from people which bought a PSU with 7/10/12 years warranty which doesn't work with their new motherboard. But because the ATX standard didn't change visually and probably most people don't even gonna know about the new ATX 2.6 standard they are gonna do a warranty claim on their motherboard or power supply.

However if Intel fully changes the 24 pins ATX connector and would call it ATX 3.0 everyone is able to see it's not compatible on forehand. Changing the 24 pins ATX connector to a 12 pins ATX connector with 5VSB, PS_ON, PWR_OK, while other connectors are 12V and ground, that should work for example.

While there isn't a 3,3V or 5V anymore to the motherboard the PSU still has it for the molex and sata connectors. So you're still fully compatible with current HDD's, SSD's, opticals, etc. For PCI, PCI Express, USB, etc. you can use a small VRM on the motherboard, which uses 12V to created the right voltage.

After that you can push the graphics card, SSD, HDD, optical, etc. manufacturers to not use the 3,3V and 5V anymore. That way you will slowly get rid of the 3,3V and 5V without losing backwards and forwards compatibility.

Except of course with the motherboard, but that's always gonna be a problem because of the Alternative Sleep Mode in ATX 2.6 as you stated.
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  #15  
Old 12-05-2017
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GI_Joe View Post
Why are you & Stefan smoking crack ?

The connector would then still have 24 pins with more empty pins for downward-compatibility.
And for other components, do you wanna get rid of PATA & SATA to drop 3.3V & 5V completely? Google proposed that once to move completely to 19V. Got laughed off for its implications on the IT world.
Remove -5v and -12v from the 24pin connector.
Remove 3.3v from the 24pin connector. Use DC-DC converter on motherboard, you need it anyway for m.2 SSDs and pci-e slots.
There's 5 x 5v DC wires in the 24 pin connector - for 15-20A of 5v do you really need that many? Lower to 2-3 pairs and use AWG16 wires for lower resistance.
When PC is on, switch the 5vSB to 5v using a relay or something, and now you have 3-4 pairs of AWG16 to carry 5v to PC.
Remove 12v from 24 pin connector. Use separate 8pin EPS connector to feed 12v to motherboard for pci-e slots and fans. With the increasing number of video cards used for mining and shit and water pumps powered from motherboard, 2 12v wires is kidna not enough anyway.

So now you have
Code:
PW_OK	5vSB	5v	5v	5v
PW_GOOD	COM	COM	COM	COM  

+12v	+12v	+12v	+12v
COM	COM	COM	COM
The 8-10pin 5v could be closer to chipset, the 12v could be closer to pci-e slots, or you could put them close together.

You could make an adapter cable and sell it separately to convert EPS 8pin+10pin to 24pin ATX (have a 12v to 3.3v 10A-ish dc-dc converter on the adapter cable)
Such adapter cables for backwards compatibility could probably be made for <10$, in volume by Chinese people they could be less than 5$.

You could also make room this way to add 20v in ATX 3.0, for powering the cpu vrm and for usb 3.0 power delivery (power monitor from usb 3.1 ports for example or an audio amplifier). For example have 4 pin AWG16, you'd safely have 20v 7.5A = 150w through a 4wire connector.

Motherboards could make their VRMs to support either 20v or 12v and in around 2-3 years 12v could be left just for fans and mechanical drives and pci-e slots. Video cards could use same 20v connector as the one for CPUs for extra power.

It would be awesome if maybe with PCI-e 4.0 they could do like they did with AGP Pro , add a tiny extension in front of the pci-e slots for 20v power.

You can have 20v 4-5A = 80w through that extension and optionally, maybe if there some flag/detection pin in that extension or if card says so through i2c/smbus/whatever, the motherboard could switch the 12v in the standard pci-e slot to 20v as well, so now you have 2 x 20v x ~5A for up to 200w going into a card. Good bye extra pci-e power cables.

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by GI_Joe View Post

Do you wanna tell world + dog to throw away all their HDDs & SSDs and by new 12V only ones for example? MBs dont have the space to have a peripheral DCDC stage on them + the space needed for all the connector outs. And that peripheral DCDC stage would be bad in so many ways.

2.5" SATA SSDs and mechanical use only 5v and have dc-dc converters on them for 2.5v , 1.8v etc .. they need several rails for the controller and the nand memory anyway.

You now have Threadripper boards and x399 boards with 3 M.2 connectors or more, and you have RAID made using 3 or 4 m.2 SSDs - those use 3.3v up to 3-4A each when writing. Such boards wouldn't power these m.2 connectors directly from 3.3v from power supply, they'd use 12v to 3.3v anyway.

You can extend ATX to E-ATX and shove a 2-4 phase DC-DC converter from 12v-20v to 3.3v 10-20A on the motherboard, it doesn't take much room, and components would be cheap (they could potentially reuse the mosfets and inductors for the cpu vrm or memory). If you add 20v to ATX 3.0, maybe you can also lower VRMs from 8-12 phase to 4-6 phase and save more space on the motherboard.

Look at lots of motherboards how much space is wasted by USB 2.0 and USB 3.0 headers which are spaced 0.1" apart, and the space used by COM and even LPT headers on the board. For high end motherboards, you could even change the headers to be 2.0mm pitch instead of 2.54mm (0.1") and for example include a small adapter cable to convert a 16pin 2.0mm pitch header into 4 x usb2.0 (4x4pin 0.1"). Some motherboards use the smaller usb 3.1 headers saving board space.

Last edited by mariush; 12-05-2017 at 02:15 PM.
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  #16  
Old 12-05-2017
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I chuckled a little when y'all said they should kill the +3.3V.

They moved -12V from required to optional. Nobody's used -12V in years, but they can't take it off the spec... they make it "optional" (as in: blue wire can be missing, and still meet "spec")... yet you guys want the +3.3V removed???
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  #17  
Old 12-05-2017
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I don't see why you'd chuckle about it. Why would you really need it?

There's lots of computers and systems which don't use a lot of power.

For example, do you need 3.3v for a board like this https://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...82E16813157726 ?

It's a 10w TDP cpu, no fan.. the whole system probably uses 15-20w at most. Use a SSD that needs only 5v and you don't need 12v wires.
You could probably power this whole board from 5v, make the power supply like i said and you could plug just the 8-10pin connector with 5v. The motherboard could have a dc-dc converter to make 12v if there's something in the pci-e slot, or have 2nd 12v power connector optional, to be connected when you want to use the pci-e slot.

So you could have ITX power supply for max 100-150w using just one 8-10pin cable to the motherboard and one sata power cable to the SSD drive.

Or you have a motherboard like this A320 chipset based board: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...82E16813157766

There's plenty of space on such a motherboard for a 3.3v 5-10A dc-dc converter.

You have a m.2 SSD shoved in the motherboard, the 5v cable and the EPS 12v cable like I said above... you can't overclock the cpu, you can use max 65w tdp processors, they have integrated graphics so you can basically power everything in your computer with just those two cables (5v 8-10pin + eps 12v)

Do you really need so much redundancy, 4 x 3.3v wires (and one all the way at the other end of connector) , 5 x 5v wires, 2 12v wires when the whole system uses less than 100 watts?
Do you even need 3.3v sense and 5v sense wires for such low power systems?

What if they manage to make HBM memory much cheaper and we'll have processors sold with 4/8/16 GB HBM2 memory and without DDR controllers? Think systems like the AMD AM1 or FM2 or like these embedded everything motherboards.

We'll no longer have long DDR slots taking up space and maybe the VRM for hbm2 memory will be on the cpu interposer so you won't need DDR memory VRM anymore and then we could maybe have the boards smaller, as wide as the pci-e x16 slot ... then the 24pin connector will really be huge on the motherboard.

edit: On some motherboards: they could probably even just use a 3A or 5A linear regulator from 5v to 3.3v in the adapter cable to produce 3.3v if they know the things on the motherboard are not gonna use more than 15w .. for example LM1084-3.3v (5A linear regulator) is less than 2$ in quantity
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  #18  
Old 12-05-2017
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With 5v you need a lot more amps than 12v. Of course, I have a hobby horse: I'm concerned with EMP so I think nothing should be compatible. The whole ecosystem should move to a new voltage so that non-EMP-resistant devices do not sneak in. And that voltage should be a simpler voltage. I'm with Google on this. But I don't expect Intel to change specs.
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  #19  
Old 12-05-2017
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariush View Post
I don't see why you'd chuckle about it. Why would you really need it?
So you either didn't read past my first sentence or didn't understand the rest.

You're asking for a voltage that's more recently been reduced in usage over one that has barely been used at all.

I get it. Say I'm Devil's advocate. I've used a number of PIO boards that are +12V and +5V only. I wish we could all move that way. But you can't just revise the standard by taking out voltages and still call it the same form factor. You need to remove the voltages and change the connector and call it something different to remove any doubt that there may be compatability.
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Last edited by jonnyGURU; 12-07-2017 at 12:27 AM.
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  #20  
Old 12-05-2017
GI_Joe GI_Joe is offline
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Originally Posted by -The_Mask- View Post
No, I will explain it better. You said that there is a big chance that a "true ATX 2.6 PSU" won't be compatible with an older ATX motherboard and vise versa. If that's gonna be true there gonna be a lot off warranty claims from people which bought a PSU with 7/10/12 years warranty which doesn't work with their new motherboard. But because the ATX standard didn't change visually and probably most people don't even gonna know about the new ATX 2.6 standard they are gonna do a warranty claim on their motherboard or power supply.
Yes, people will claim it and not get it. They bought 2.4 or older PSUs, not 2.6. Same with anything else in the world. You don't get future compatibility. So the costs of this is on the DIY-component companies to tell end users they gotta buy new. The Apple-way, ya know ?

And for all the other points by you and others here:

- Of course simplifying output voltages is better, but your "dreams" are just CHAOS. Compatibility is of utmost importance.
- Also, your "dreams" are ignoring space on boards, the transfer of costs from one component to the other (You guys do not realize that no one wants to "complicate & cost up" his own products to "simplify & cost-down" someone else's products. All companies will fight like hell to prevent this.

Just to make it as simple as possible:

ATX12V 2.5 is just the early message to the ecosystem of the PC to prepare for ATX12V 2.6/2020 when Intel plans too release 12th gen Sapphire Rapids. They give 2.5 years headstart, which is a first for Intel. They never gave such a long headstart for major changes.
Microsoft (and end users) want to have systems "awakening" as fast as possible. For that they need ASMs, which keep a system in a state similar to "S0" (not S3 - S7) but powering off as many components as possible while the OS is actually still ON with minimal processes/tasks running.
ASMs are Microsoft's "Modern Standby" & Google's "Lucid Sleep" (DuckDuckGo them )
Just the Legacy Standby Model of S0-S7 way does not allow this.
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/win...tandby-over-s3
For these "Fast Wake-up" ASM modes power needs to go up FAST. Much faster than before. And the crackpoint is especially T3 for this.

So in 2020 for:
Non-ASM systems (Legacy) systems with Sapphire Rapids Intel wants 100-250 ms T3
And Nicrosoft+Intel want for ASM systems even 100-150 ms T3.
So:
100-500= 300 ms
changes in 2020 to
100-250= 175 ms
and later to
100-150= 125 ms
But Windows 10 already can do the ASMs, so it is now for the ecosystem to release the hardware to make that happen = The age of incompatibility has started. The SOLE purpose of ATX12V 2.5 is to announce the new T1 & T3's 2.6 years in advance to soften the "bang".

And please don't complain to me about this. I am just the guy wo can add up 1 + 1 And no, changing even more of the ecosystem by removing DC voltages would cause even more and unnecessary chaos

(Yes, I am a brute when provoked )
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