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PC Power Supply Discussion Troubleshooting and discussion of computer power supplies

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  #31  
Old 07-19-2016
Spectre Spectre is offline
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Originally Posted by turkey3_scratch View Post
If I, such a lowly peasant, may provide some input of my own on comparing units +-50W apart. I personally don't see a problem with it because the wattage on the box (AKA the PSU's wattage) is such a generalized and non-standardized number to begin with. You have some 500W PSUs, for instance, that blow up at 300W. You have others that could actually handle 550W fine. I think restricting comparisons to models of the same "wattage" is silly because a power supply itself does not have a value called "wattage".
Watts are very much a standardized derived SI unit.

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If someone asks me what the wattage of a power supply really is, I tell them it is nothing. It is a number on a box with no significant meaning, no technical meaning, really. You don't see reviews with a data table that has the "wattage" of a power supply because there is no such thing at all.
Unfortunately, you lack an understanding of colloquial nomenclature used then. You should be substituting capacity for wattage. Capacity is a thing. How it is derived and regulated is certainly more delicate and beyond this.

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So, frankly, I'd be fine comparing "400W" units with "800W" units.

Sure, in the "800W" unit review, the load tester pushes it farther, but if you have a computer, and are considering one of these two power supplies, that review can provide you the exact information such as noise, efficiency, and overall voltage stability under the load conditions your hardware will impose. If you have calculated your hardware to be about 250W under gaming conditions, then you look at how the PSUs perform up to 250W of load. You don't need to look at any tests that push the PSU any harder because your hardware won't be subjecting it to such a load.
Why don't we just drop a review unit into a set PC configuration, run a benchmark, and hook up a voltmeter? After all, that is all they are going to be doing with it in the end and it it can do it then why does it matter how it does it so long as that arbitrary power draw is supported in a system? Problem solved! We don't need a load tester anymore. I have a new review methodology!

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So if you say there is a difference in a 800W and 850W PSU, I have to disagree. I think the difference is only something that can be firmly stated when you have two precise units in mind to compare. There is no generalized similarity or difference. Heck, you may have an 800W unit, for instance, that shuts down under heavier load than an 850W unit. When we start using labelled wattage as a parameter for comparison, we tend to forget that labelled wattage in and of itself is pointless.

"Many errors, of a truth, consist merely in the application of the wrong names of things." - Spinoza
Rationalizing unsound test design and analysis is indeed a very easy thing to do (you should see the things I review on a day to day basis). Designing and understanding what makes good test methodology, is more difficult to do........and I am not going to go through it again. Search, however, will turn up the answers from years back when I had more time to spend on the subject.
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  #32  
Old 07-20-2016
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Originally Posted by Spectre View Post
To evaluate a product.
That would look like almost a circular reasoning, Spectre: when you (royal) "evaluate" anything, you are assessing that thing with reference to some other, different scope/use, than the mere pleasure of evaluating it/tinkering with it.

A PSU review, an evaluation of that PSU on a magazine/web source helps out those magazine's readers to decide whether that specific PSU may be useful/desiderable/right for them: what else?

Anyway, I guess/see you don't want to continue/deepen this specific talk: let's give it a rest and thanks.
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  #33  
Old 07-20-2016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turkey3_scratch View Post
I think restricting comparisons to models of the same "wattage" is silly because a power supply itself does not have a value called "wattage".

If someone asks me what the wattage of a power supply really is, I tell them it is nothing. It is a number on a box with no significant meaning, no technical meaning, really. You don't see reviews with a data table that has the "wattage" of a power supply because there is no such thing at all. So, frankly, I'd be fine comparing "400W" units with "800W" units.
Dude, what?

What is your logic behind being OK with comparing a unit that was built to output a maximum of 400W for a sustained period of time, at a given temperature, meeting certain efficiency targets with a unit that was built to output a maximum of 800W, or 1 200W for the same duration, at the same temperature, meeting the same efficiency targets?

Not forgetting that manufacturer wants to make each unit as cheaply as possible in order to maximize profit according to their specific strategy (e.g. cheap and nasty for once off sales, built-like-a-brick-house to create customer loyalty with an excellent product.)

@Spectre: Regarding your comments about an 800W unit and an 850W unit, would you not put them in the same general "class" of PSUs? If someone was going to be PSU hunting and their specific needs pointed to an 800W PSU, would an 850W PSU not fit the bill as well, especially if the prices were similar?

Last edited by GDILord; 07-20-2016 at 06:12 AM. Reason: Added question for Spectre.
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  #34  
Old 07-20-2016
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Originally Posted by Spectre View Post
Unfortunately, you lack an understanding of colloquial nomenclature used then. You should be substituting capacity for wattage. Capacity is a thing. How it is derived and regulated is certainly more delicate and beyond this.
There is no single value of a power supply called "capacity" either. It is more of a generalized term that varies under different load and/or environmental scenarios. And if you do believe in such a thing, then you must admit that not all 800W units have the same capacity. I guarantee that if you compare only 800W units to other 800W units, many of those units have different "capacities". And if you can compare 800W units with 800W units of other compares, I think it'd be fine comparing an 800W unit to an 850W unit of a different capacity.

But, agree to disagree. All friends here
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  #35  
Old 07-20-2016
mdk777 mdk777 is offline
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"Now, when we try to compare how this unit performs relative to comparable units; things get a bit tough since it has been years since we have seen a highend 800W power supply. So, we don't have a unit to compare this to fairly."
Yes, the debate is exactly what a "fair" comparison might be.

Simply repeating your conclusion does nothing to expand, illuminate, illustrate, or otherwise clarify your position.

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What I posted was already true before I posted, I was doing a favor by reiterating it since it had not been read.
I can find a dozen units that could easily be compared.

A Platinum 850 would be the logical comparison in addition to a 850 Titanium.
Your conclusion that the data points do not match exactly is absurd.
Such thinking would preclude all comparisons...there is never totally exact comparisons...only ranges.
We know that that are diminishing returns; that achieving the extra efficiency of Titanium may not be cost effective, might actually result in the degradation of certain quality standards.
Showing the differences, what you get(how much more or less), what is good and what is bad in a direct comparison is very, very helpful to the reader.


You have simply concluded that your criteria for what might make a good comparison is absolute.

So again, while you are certainly free to defend your absolute authority on the subject, it does nothing for the reader asking questions. While the customer is not always right, he is not always wrong either. He may just need more information to make an informed choice.

IDK...YOU KNOW...LIKE BY READING A REVIEW ON THE INTERNET...

Perhaps written by someone less condescending,less defensive, and less belligerent to questions.????

PS: here is a review that makes a broad range of comparisons

https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/...X-800-2/6.html

Now, many are not very close at all...but it gives you an idea of the range. You can pick your specific criteria and focus on just those couple of units if you want.
Fair? YES...exact, no.

But a great deal of information that gives you a quick metric to see what your own best "bang for the buck" criteria.

Last edited by jonnyGURU; 07-20-2016 at 12:13 PM.
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  #36  
Old 07-20-2016
rafal_iB_PL rafal_iB_PL is offline
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Yeah, why not just divide voltage delta by wattage delta between points (or the other way round, depending on if you want "more is better" or "less is better")? Sounds like you'd get pretty fair metric, the one that would actually scale well across much wider range of wattages.
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  #37  
Old 07-20-2016
Behemot Behemot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GDILord View Post
Dude, what?

What is your logic behind being OK with comparing a unit that was built to output a maximum of 400W for a sustained period of time, at a given temperature, meeting certain efficiency targets with a unit that was built to output a maximum of 800W, or 1 200W for the same duration, at the same temperature, meeting the same efficiency targets?
If some 400W and 800W units perform similarly for similar price, hell yeah you compare them!

Just wait to see how much I am bashing BQ! E10 CM compared to Corsair RMx which offers 50 W more for lower price and already just on a first look much better quality and double the warranty. By spectre's logic these units are completely different. By normal guy's logic RM750x wipes the floor with E10-CM-700W so he buys Corsair any day of the week.
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  #38  
Old 07-20-2016
rafal_iB_PL rafal_iB_PL is offline
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I wonder how it would go if it was E9 instead
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  #39  
Old 07-21-2016
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IIRC we already know what Pavel thinks about Aurums.
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  #40  
Old 07-21-2016
Behemot Behemot is offline
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Does not matter what I think, the results speak for themselves. I just comment on that
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