EVGA G2 or something else?

[Stefan Payne]

You may be right, but doesnt follow logic.

It follows physics.
YOur mistake is to think of PSU as some time of Motor. FOr example your car. A 230hp car might be quieter at 130kph than a 90hp one because its reving not as high.

But we're not talking about that. We are talking about Electronics. There is a (physics) law that's called the law of the conservation of energy. It means that energy can only converted but never be lost!
The Term loss usually means phisical stuff that is not wanted but happens anyway.

For example: A PSU doesn't convert 100% of the incoming energy into the output energy. They only convert a part, in these days 90% or more are entirely possible in that process. The other 10% (depending on the Efficiency of the PSU) is converted to heat.

So we have two PSU, roughly the same efficiency at the same load (absolute, not relatively!) but the 550 and 850W use the same PCB, the same heatsinks.
How can the 850W be any quieter at the same load when they both generate the same amount of heat?

They do not. The "trick" is to use a higher RPM fan in the higher wattage units and just let it spin faster.
Since you usually can only go down to about 4V, wich isn't exactly linear, you come out at around 1000rpm for the 3000-3500rpm fan that is needed for the higher wattage units.
You can see that splendidly when looking at be quiet PSU because they openly write the max. RPM Onto the fan. and lower power units often get a 1500rpm or less fan and rotate it at 500rpm or less at lower loads.
The higher wattage get up to 2800rpm and also rotate the fan a bit higher at 100% load.

100% load, for the Manufacturer, means 100% load at the rated temperature - wich is 40-50°C for higher end units.
That is what the unit is designed/made for.
And why some units are unnecessarily loud at normal, up to 25°C room temperature...

Every review on any PSU I've seen has fan speeds, noise and temps rising as the unit is tested from 10% loads to 100%. Not sure if these 550w and 850w G2s (done by different reviewers) are the norm with all PSUs or just an anomaly due to different conditions, testing criteria, etc.

Nope, its fairly normal that higher wattage PSU get a higher speed fan.

FOr example the Bitfenix Whisper M has a 0,45A fan for 450 and 550W, the 650-850W got a 0,6A fan.
And thus the idle RMP of the 450 and 550W Whisper M is somewhere around 450-500rpm, the 650W+ is at 700RPM.

WIth EVGA its even worse and they go straight up to 1000rpm for higher wattage models. I think I linked the 850W Leadex 2 for you.
EVGA will be the same, they just put an EVGA Label on it.

[MonkeH]

17A is a lot and over the legal specification for 1,5mm² cables, wich is specced (or rather has to be fused) for 16A or 15A depending on Region.

You really overestimate the current cables can handle.
17A is also far more than a single PCIe connector can handle and, as said, more than the cable in your house are fused with, if we're talking about 1,5mm² Copper wires.

Stephen, I think you are perhaps confused.

You suggested that on failure a 750W PSU will dump an extra 17A which will somehow cause damage, yet a claim a 550W PSU failure will not.
The point we were making is that if a PSU somehow failed in such a way as you suggest and that it shorts 12v to ground, the difference between 46A and 63A is unlikely to make any difference.

Either way it is fried.

In such scenario you would require < 200W PSU to be "safe" as far as your single 1.5mm2 cable example is concerned.
Discussions on house wiring, completely irrelevant to the thread.

Problem is:
Nobody knows what the future will bring.

True, but one can be pragmatic and prepared, no?

I do not need an 8 core CPU right now, but I would still buy one for what I might need in the future.
Why would anybody need more than 640k of RAM?

But to claim that the future will bring higher power consumption, isn't really based in reality, if we keep a certain price point in mind.

The 300W enermax that I bought in 2002 suggests otherwise. I still have an AT PSU, I think it is around 70W...
I think it is safe to say power requirements will always tend to increase, perhaps not by much, but historically it has always been the case.

Perhaps SLI comes back into fashion in 2022 and everybody fits two GPUs as standard.
Maybe I decide to add a ten drive raid array next year. Who knows.

But I genuinely don't understand why you are so obsessed with fitting the smallest possible PSU that will meet today’s requirements, when a slightly larger one of the same quality is really not expensive.
It feels like it is more to prove an arbitrary point than anything constructive.

Who said that you'd need a new PSU in 2-3 Years??
That's not likely at all.

It is pretty much exactly what you are suggesting I do.

Three scenarios:

1) If I purchase a 500W one today, and require a 650W in two years I have to upgrade. I have bought twice. Say £70 + £90
2) If I purchase a 750W one today and require a 650W in two years I don't upgrade. I have bought once. Say £100
3) If I purchase a 500W one today, and maybe I only require 480W in two years. I have bought once, Say £70

So you suggest I gamble, perhaps I save £30, perhaps I lose £60.
On a PC that costs £1500+ which I expect to keep for a minimum of 7 years
When you have said yourself you don't know what the future will hold.

And you think this is the most sensible plan?

Most people will spend £30 on RGB, but apparently I'm crazy for investing it into something useful like a PSU

So if your G2 fails, that might be the one you get in the RMA Process.

This is a valid point, and actually the main concern I would have.
As far as I can see the G2 is a better unit than its successors.

However you could equally find the same from any brand.
I think it is true that even the best brands produce bad product lines on occasion.

All of these companies appear to rebrand and swap suppliers, so perhaps BitFenix new line will be garbage too. As you said, you never know what will happen in 5 years.

Every review on any PSU I've seen has fan speeds, noise and temps rising as the unit is tested from 10% loads to 100%. Not sure if these 550w and 850w G2s (done by different reviewers) are the norm with all PSUs or just an anomaly due to different conditions, testing criteria, etc.

Nope, its fairly normal that higher wattage PSU get a higher speed fan.

Actually I think you have misquoted me. I believe that was taco

the Bitfenix design seem to be very good and there are no issues known with it either

So here is my dilemma Stephen.

You tell me the Bitfenix design is good, while slating the G2, but so far offer me no details on how you have arrived at this conclusion.
I just saw a youtube video where somebody has apparently bought 16 of them, and only 1 worked. Who do I believe?

I read the reviews on JG and there are no problems with either the G2 or the Whisper (or many others).
You tell me the JonnyGuru reviews do not test things properly and are not conclusive. Who do I believe?

You tell me warranties are worthless and EVGA are rubbish, despite them consistently rated among the best warranty available on every other forum. Who do I believe?

After two pages of multiquotes your main concern with the G2 is the fan is slightly too loud.
And the warranty might have terms and conditions.

After three pages of multiquotes, your issue is the G2 is single rail.


At this point it is hard for me to work out if it is a language/comprehension barrier or you are just trolling me for your own amusement.
Genuinely I feel you must be knowledgeable on the subject, but you undermine your own credibility.

The BitFenix may well be a fantastic power supply, and if you had said on page 1 that you would have chosen it over the G2 because it offered multirail protection at a similar price point I would have taken the recommendation far more seriously.

I honestly wanted suggestions for a good alternative PSU to consider in the 750w range or any noteworthy issues with the G2. Really, that simple!
Thanks to everybody else who has endured this thread. I can only apologise for the disaster it has become.

As for the PSU. I've given up caring. I'll just flip a coin.

[Stefan Payne]

Stephen, I think you are perhaps confused.

Nope, you are misunderstanding what I'm saying...

You suggested that on failure a 750W PSU will dump an extra 17A which will somehow cause damage, yet a claim a 550W PSU failure will not.

No, I'm saying that the 750W causes more damage because of more current and/or can cause damage due to not beeing able to detect faults as reliable. Especially if we're talking about Single Rail units, wich we are.
An extreme Case happened here:
https://www.overclock.net/forum/31-p...ulti-rail.html

Its not that clear but you get the gist of it. MOSFET on Motherboard fried, 1600W SINGLE RAIL PSU didn't see it as a fault, didn't switch off, Board caught fire because the current was dumped into the Board.

In such scenario you would require < 200W PSU to be "safe" as far as your single 1.5mm2 cable example is concerned.
Discussions on house wiring, completely irrelevant to the thread.

No, you just split the 12V power into multiple paths and check the current, switch the PSU off.
There are already solutions for that, that make a higher power PSU safer. The G2 is not one of those...

True, but one can be pragmatic and prepared, no?

Higher Wattage isn't preparing for the future, as the past showed that 550W is a good value and there were/are only very rare cases where you'd need more than that.
And even if, there are 450W PSU that work flawlessly (granted, with modifications), while other 660W PSU do not.

So what's the point??
And even with the 3900, the Power Consumption didn't really increase, its still a 105W unit. The CPU that really increased the power consumption in recent years was the 9900K by the way. And the 9900KS will even more so do it.

I do not need an 8 core CPU right now, but I would still buy one for what I might need in the future.
Why would anybody need more than 640k of RAM?

Hä??
8 Core CPUs are pretty tame and AMD sells them in 65W TDP. Hardly anyone buys the 105W 3800X for various reasons (100 or 200MHz for almost 100€ more, sometimes there are good deals though)...
What you are talking about might be 12 or 16 Cores, but even those aren't that bad, if we don't talk about OC...

The 300W enermax that I bought in 2002 suggests otherwise.

Yes, because they moved from 5V towards 12V in the early '00s.
Back in those days, 300W had something between 15 and 19A on 12V. Modern 300W have more than 20A on 12V, for example this one, with 288W on 12V -> 24A. But since its around 42€ and the 400W Pure Power, wich is not also 80plus Gold certified instead of Bronze for the 300W, the 300W range is dying and many companys don't even offer a 300W product these days. Corsair has the VS350 but the vastly superior CX450 is also only ~7€ more.

Since around 2005 or 2006, when 80plus came around, 400-550W are more common and 300/350W became rarer...

I think it is safe to say power requirements will always tend to increase, perhaps not by much, but historically it has always been the case.

Not in the last ~10 years or so.
There were some exceptions but the higher wattage cards became far more expensive.

"Back in the day", you could get ~250W TDP Cards for around 200€, today we're closer to 150W than 250W in that price range.
And the highest End Cards stayed at around 300W anyway, as that is the spec.

Desktop CPUs also became a bit more efficient, as I said, that they were specified for up to 140W or 130W, today the Ryzen 3000 series is at 65W TDP - up to 330€. The first 105W TDP is listed for 384€. (the 3600X for some reason has a 95W TDP) though).
On Intel only the unlocked K are more than 65W TDP...

But for the most part, we are talking about 400€ or more for the CPU, that might consume a bit more, the cheaper ones gotten far more efficient - same with GPU!

Up until ~400€, we're talking about less than 200W.
And the 250W+ ones are even more than that.
Like the RTX 2080 SUPER for at least 710€.
The "normal" RTX 2080 is only 215W though (and "only" 630€).

On AMD the Radeon 7 - for also around 700€ - is a 250W+ Card. VEGA64 was available for less than 400€ for a time and could cause Problem with 550W PSU - but was fixable.
I ran my VEGA64 for a while with a Cougar GX-F 550W and a Ryzen 1700X on ASUS X370-F without any problems/reboots/shutdowns.

But some other ~650W didn't work

Perhaps SLI comes back into fashion in 2022 and everybody fits two GPUs as standard.

Won't be happening with how the software works.
Especially since around 10 Years ago, with the Radeon 1800 and 1900, where it made sense with the additional FSAA modes, nobody cared about it. And it worked on most Games of the Time.

And even with 2 higher end Cards such as Radeon HD7970GHz or 280X, a 550W PSU is still enough (yes, I did that too!) Its really hard with those Cards to get even over 600W.

So no, the Power Consumption in Desktop didn't increase in the last 10 years - on the contrary!
It even decreased for the most part.

Only for the highest end parts it slightly increased. As for the GPUs: Seems like users don't want 250W TDP Cards for 200€
215W TDP seems to be a "magical number" for 400€ or less...

Maybe I decide to add a ten drive raid array next year. Who knows.

wich is a bad idea to do in a Game PC due to the Transients of the GPU and you want to build a NAS because of that.
ANd even if, that isn't really a problem, if you get a Controller with Staggered Spinup. ANd that's the only thing that really kills you.
The normal Power of HDDs aren't that high, despite what Outervision wants to tell you.

But I genuinely don't understand why you are so obsessed with fitting the smallest possible PSU that will meet today’s requirements, when a slightly larger one of the same quality is really not expensive.

I don't get why you are so obsessed with fitting a 750W PSU in a 350W PC...
A 550W is far from the smallest possible PSU, that would be a 400W. Nobody here sugested that, did they??


And I had a 5700XT for a while but send it back because of the whining of the fan at ~800rpm or so...

At the moment I have a 3700X with a really awfully inefficient ASUS X370-F Strix, wich consumes ~15-20W more than some more efficient Boards and I also have a VEGA64, wich at normal Gaming is around 450W for the whole System. The 5700XT was around 100W less (at 1440p/60fps at the time) than the VEGA.

So we are talking about a _MEASURED_ ~350W System without OC (wich, as said, doesn't make too much Sense on AMD anyway as you get 5-10% higher performance at 50% higher power consumption).

A 750W PSU is just a total waste of money for THAT System!

It is pretty much exactly what you are suggesting I do.

Nope, that is just not true.
But if you look at the past, what GPUs were sold at what Prices and how it is right now, a 550W was always the best choice, sometimes even around 450W.

But do you remember the R9-290?? You remember that at one point you could have gotten one for around 250€?
The 290X was a bit more but not much.
The 290 was specified at 275W, the 290X at 290W.

If you look at what you have to pay for ~290W TDP, today we are at ~700€, for modern Cards.
In a Sale you might eventually be able to get someting similar for less than that, but at this point in time, the 5700 is a better choice than VEGA64, wich could have made sense in March or so, when you could get one for far less than 400€.

Three scenarios:

1) If I purchase a 500W one today, and require a 650W in two years I have to upgrade. I have bought twice. Say £70 + £90
2) If I purchase a 750W one today and require a 650W in two years I don't upgrade. I have bought once. Say £100
3) If I purchase a 500W one today, and maybe I only require 480W in two years. I have bought once, Say £70

So you suggest I gamble, perhaps I save £30, perhaps I lose £60.
On a PC that costs £1500+ which I expect to keep for a minimum of 7 years
When you have said yourself you don't know what the future will hold.

But why do you believe that you would need more than 500W?? I don't understand that.
If you look at the Past 10 years or so, from 2008 or 9 until now, you see that "high TDP" Products became more and more expensive, while, at the same price, more or less, the TDP (or even actual power consumption), dramatically decreased.

Just look at the Graphics Cards! The highest wattage for low price was the R9-290 with 275W, wich you could obtain for 250€ at some point. Look at this card:
https://geizhals.de/asus-r9290-dc2oc...-a1054782.html
Click on "Preisentwicklung öffnen" (right side) and then "alles" top right. Then look at the Price at around the end of 2014 and early 2015. That was ~260€ for the card.
Remember, that was a 275W TDP Card for ~260€.

Now lets look at what we can get today for the same money:
https://geizhals.de/?cat=gra16_512&x...rt=p&bl1_id=30

Lets set it at 235-300€ for the card.
Now lets look at what cards we can get:

RX590, 580, 570 (hardly any at all btw), and the VEGA 56
RX590 is a 175W Card
580 (due to 14nm instead of 12), 10W more -> 185W
570 is 120W
The VEGA56 is on the higher end with 210W

That's for the AMD side.
Now the nVidia side:
1660ti, 1660 SUPER, 1660, 1060, 1060 GDDR5X
1660ti: 120W
1660SUPER: 125W
1060 GDDR5X: 120W
1060: 120W


So the conclusion is that in the ~250€ range, the Power consumption on nVidia side is at around 120W, down from around 215W (GTX 470/570) in this price range.

On AMD Side, it is the same, with one Peak (R9-290), compared to the HD5870 (188W), the Power Consumption in that price range is still around the 190W Mark, it even decreased a bit since the 40nm DX11 Series.
ANd if we look at the first GCN Chip (Tahiti), wich is specified at 250W, it is also down a bit. Hell you can even argue that the TDP is constantly decreasing, since the Radeon HD7970 GHz Edition (300W)...
Or that in the last ~13 Years the Power Consumption of Graphics cards - is about the same, nothing changed here!
HD2900XTX -> 240W.
The 8800 ULTRA was "only" ~177W but the GTX 280 was also ~240W.
Do you know what's also around 240W?? The RTX 2080ti...

My Source for GPU is this:
https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/#2080%20ti


As for CPUs:
in 2004 or 2005, the highest power CPU was the Pentium D 800 series with 130W TDP.
The Athlon 64 X2 4600+ had a TDP of 110W.

Our Ryzen 7/3700X has a TDP of 65W, the 3900X has a TDP of 105W. But there are rumors of a 65W TDP 3900 going on as well (might eventually be an OEM Only Chip though.

SOurce:
http://www.cpu-world.com

And you think this is the most sensible plan?

Yes, because I don't see an increase of Power Consumption of PC Hardware in the mid range in the last 10, maybe even 15 years.
on the contrary, it even decreased!

Just look at CPU WOrld, the Athlon 64/3200 from 2003. 130nm, CG Stepping. That one was specified with 89W.
Granted back in the day, the GPUs were only around 70W or so in the DX9 generation.
However, with the later DX10 Generation, the power consumtion dramatically increased but since then it didn't move an inch at all!
The ~250W TDP that the Radeon HD2900XTX consumed is even today the higher limit that both companies try not to go over. There are some Chips that do though (R9-290 Series, R9-390, VEGA64 and Radeon 7).

So the Power Consumption in the last 16 years in the CPU market didn't change in the mid range. ONLY the Ultra High End Desktop it increased a bit, but also those have far more cores than Destkops and at least 4 Channel memory, TRX80 is said to be 8 Channel (basically a rebranded Server Plattform). Same with Intel LGA20xx.

The Power Consumption in the GPU Area didn't move that much and in recent years there seem to be a way bigger market seperation than ever before. 200W TDP+ Cards are getting more and more expensive, while in the 250€ area, most Offers are between 120 and 175W. And that since Pitcairn was introduced back in 2013 or so.

However you could equally find the same from any brand.

Nope, there are some "brands" that didn't have one dud in the higher mid range in the last 10 years.
There are some however that are a bit stingy and save on the connectors on the PSU Side for their "lower wattage" units. But otherwise their units are pretty good.

All of these companies appear to rebrand and swap suppliers

No they don't, EVGA does.
The others contract their power supplys to the usual manufacturers and asked them to develop a PSU for them. be quiet is one of those that don't do badge engineering but in recent years also Corsair does that more and more.
As is the Bitfenix Whisper M. That is a design, that Bitfenix asked CWT to do for them and wich they had exclusive for a couple of years.
ANd it is so awesome that you can buy similar products from other Manufacturers - for example Enermax (Revolution D.F.) and Deepcool (DQ-xxx-M)
many things that be quiet uses is made to their liking and not just a badge with their name put on.

so perhaps BitFenix new line will be garbage too. As you said, you never know what will happen in 5 years.

Maybe, maybe not. But we do know that EVGA doesn't have a particularly good track record, when it comes to good, quality and/or otherwise special PSU.
You can get basically the same unit from the Original Manufacturer - with awesome connectors that are even glowing in the dark.

You tell me the Bitfenix design is good, while slating the G2, but so far offer me no details on how you have arrived at this conclusion.

The Bitfenix comes with 4 Rails, the Super Flower/EVGA doesn't.
The OTP Circuit is a bit dodgy and implemented via fan controller.

The Protection Chip on the EVGA/Super Flower is unknown, thus we do not know if UVP on 12V is implemented or not.

I just saw a youtube video where somebody has apparently bought 16 of them, and only 1 worked. Who do I believe?

Not some random person from youtube that doesn't tell you what he did with those units.
If you pay me, I can also buy 16 of any PSU, kill them and whine on Youtube about that.

The most likely explanation could be for example a faulty/low quality UPS.
Or for example a Problem with his electrical installation, a faulty electrical connection, where someone forgot the screw and thus the voltage drops dramatically.
Or shitty delivery chan from Bitfenix to him. THAT is the Cause for most of the Problems.
And if he lives in an area with more potholes than people, that could explain his Problems...

I read the reviews on JG and there are no problems with either the G2 or the Whisper (or many others).
You tell me the JonnyGuru reviews do not test things properly and are not conclusive. Who do I believe?

Jonnyguru.com only test electrical performance within the specification of the PSU, they do not test overload behavior or other Protections (like OTP), they do not measure fan speed.
I can understand the ARgument made at that time, that they don't want to test protection due to fear that the PSU will damage the Equipment or fan speed because they have to buy another tool.

But in the recent years, for higher quality units, most are fine, the real difference is in overload behaviour and especially noise of the units.

Bad overload behaviour is something you can see with the EVGA B3 or G3 but also something like this:
https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.ph...t.html?start=3

Last Paragraph, under the picture of the internals of the unit.
TL; DR:
it didn't switch off. They were able to pull 100A from it, while the 12V Rail dropped to 6V and Ripple/Noise wasn't measurable...

You tell me warranties are worthless and EVGA are rubbish, despite them consistently rated among the best warranty available on every other forum. Who do I believe?

No, I'm telling you that you overrate the Warranty and that it is not certain that EVGA will survive the Warranty period of your unit.
And that there are also other factors that can render the Warranty useless or even let EVGA reject your warranty claim. For example someone messed up the paintjob of the case of the PSU in the factory and forgot to paint some parts and thus your PSU develops a bit of rust in a visible position.

You totally overrate the Warranty an want to buy or exclude PSU due to Warranty, without looking at the technical features and performance of the units FIRST.
Do you buy your cars because of the Warranty as well or do you care less about that?
Do you buy your Motherboards because of the Warranty or do you care less about that and look for other features instead??

What other people claim about the EVGA is how it is RIGHT NOW, I'm telling you might not be able to use the Warranty for various reasons. Especially since EVGA is still mainly a GPU manufacturer, they are dependant on nVidia. But what happens when AMD gets stronger and the sales of nVidia GPUs drop?? Then EVGA has a HUGE Problem.

The BitFenix may well be a fantastic power supply, and if you had said on page 1 that you would have chosen it over the G2 because it offered multirail protection at a similar price point I would have taken the recommendation far more seriously.

But the Bitfenix does offer all that at a similar price point!
You are hellbent on 750W, but your EVGA is said to cost 97 Weight units, the Whisper M is hardly any more...
https://www.overclockers.co.uk/searc...enix+Whisper+M

While the one I recommend (550W), is only 83 Pound. ANd you can even chose the Formula, wich is in higher wattages a bit quieter than the Whisper M, wich is even cheaper and the 750W FOrmula is 83 Pound, the 550W 67 Pound.

The Straight Power 11 is a bit more, at 86 Pound for 550W at Reichelt, the 750W is 105 british things.

[MonkeH]

Nope, you are misunderstanding what I'm saying...

I know what you are saying. What I can't fathom is why you are being so obtuse.

Board caught fire because the current was dumped into the Board.

And if you put 43A through it, it will still catch fire. If not it will certainly fry something
The boards will still be dead. The outcome will be the same. Ergo no difference.

No, you just split the 12V power into multiple paths and check the current, switch the PSU off.

No, you don't. Because you said we are talking about single rail.
So on a single rail you need a <200A power supply to be safe in your example.

So I ask you again, why is a single rail 550W PSU safer than a 750W single rail PSU.
Or indeed why is a 550W single rail PSU safer than a 750W multi rail PSU for that matter.

Because that is what you implied.

There are already solutions for that, that make a higher power PSU safer. The G2 is not one of those...

And so, instead of debating points that are irrelevant, you could have just answered the original question and explained WHAT is better than the G2 and WHY it is better.
If you want people to agree with you, or see your point of view - don't argue with them, educate them.

So what's the point??

Seemingly still beyond your grasp.

Hä??
8 Core CPUs are pretty tame and AMD sells them in 65W TDP.

You are not using 8 cores to read this web page. Thus you do not need to buy an 8 core CPU.
Anything else is pointless and a waste of money because you do not need it right now. <<< This is your logic. See why it is flawed?

300W range is dying and many companys don't even offer a 300W product these days. Corsair has the VS350 but the vastly superior CX450 is also only ~7€ more.

And you prove my point.
They don't offer it because nobody wants something that is running on the limit when you can get something bigger for the same price.
Why buy a 750W PSU instead of a 550W? Because it is almost the same price.

Won't be happening with how the software works.

You say you can't predict the future, and now apparently you can.

So no, the Power Consumption in Desktop didn't increase in the last 10 years - on the contrary!

Good to know. So the aforementioned 300W PSU will run two 2080ti and an 3950x. 'Triffic.

Only for the highest end parts it slightly increased.

Oh wait, so it did increase after all. Now I need to buy another PSU. Drat.
Bold of you to assume I will never add high end parts to my system.

I don't get why you are so obsessed with fitting a 750W PSU in a 350W PC...

Because it is almost the same price and if I need more than 350W in the future it costs me nothing extra because I already have it

If you can buy two beers for 6 euros, or one beer for 5 euros. Do you say - I only want one beer now. Or do you buy the two and drink one now keep one for later?
This is the point you keep missing. I really don't know how else to explain it to you.

A 750W PSU is just a total waste of money for THAT System!

But it may not be THAT system in the future. It might be a DIFFERENT system. Why can you not accept this?
There is minimal difference in price for the extra you get. You are literally wasting no money.

But why do you believe that you would need more than 500W?? I don't understand that.

Because, unlike you, I cannot predict what will happen in the future.
But right now I know I can get a 750W PSU much cheaper TODAY than I will be able to get a 550W in 3 years time.

Now lets look at what we can get today for the same money:

Well we can get a 750W PSU for about the same as a 550W for a start...

Nope, there are some "brands" that didn't have one dud in the higher mid range in the last 10 years.

And rather than just make a sweeping statement which is meaningless.
What you could do, perhaps, is list those brands which might answer the original question and help somebody pick an alternative to the G2. Like I originally asked?
Please, instead of arguing, educate.

The others contract their power supplys to the usual manufacturers and asked them to develop a PSU for them.

As is the Bitfenix Whisper M. That is a design, that Bitfenix asked CWT to do for them and wich they had exclusive for a couple of years.
ANd it is so awesome that you can buy similar products from other Manufacturers - for example Enermax (Revolution D.F.) and Deepcool (DQ-xxx-M)

Sorry but I don't see the difference. What you are saying is if CWT makes a power supply and it is sold by somebody else it is OK. If Superflower makes a power supply and it is sold by somebody else, it is not OK....
Non Sequitur. I recall it used to be accepted that Superflower > CWT

Personally I couldn't care who makes it, or what brand is on the side of it. What I want to know is if it is good. If there are known issues and if there is something better.

The reason I picked the EVGA G2 was because it was cheaper than the Leadex, came with more warranty got good reviews and I could save £10 on delivery.
If the Leadex branded version was cheaper I would have chosen that instead. I asked on here for more information on the G2 to see if there was something better I could choose instead.
You probably don't remember, it seems like a distant memory. It was three pages ago in a galaxy far far away....

Maybe, maybe not. But we do know that EVGA doesn't have a particularly good track record, when it comes to good, quality and/or otherwise special PSU.
You can get basically the same unit from the Original Manufacturer - with awesome connectors that are even glowing in the dark.

Again, you miss the point. That is why I asked - and I asked about the G2. Not the G3, not the G5, not the GQ, not what they produced in the past, not what they will produce in the future.
It is a means to an end. I don't really care what other PSUs EVGA make/source. I don't intend to buy one

I need a power supply. The G2 was available, if the G2 is good, great I'll take it. If it is not, then I look elsewhere. It's this thing called online shopping...

For me to be able to choose I need to be able to quantify WHY x is better than y.

The Bitfenix comes with 4 Rails, the Super Flower/EVGA doesn't.
The OTP Circuit is a bit dodgy and implemented via fan controller.

The Protection Chip on the EVGA/Super Flower is unknown, thus we do not know if UVP on 12V is implemented or not.

OK, this is more helpful, thank you.
And the reason you couldn't have just said this to start with in one post and saved 3 pages of inane waffle was....?

Not some random person from youtube that doesn't tell you what he did with those units.

Not that it is really relevant, but apparently they were brand new and DOA and acknowledged by BitFenix to be a faulty batch, you can watch it if you are at all interested.
One of the first thing I do when purchasing a product is to search forums and youtube for known problems. A few reports is probably nothing. If there are dozens with the same problem, probably best to avoid.
You suggested the Whisper M. I searched. I found. That is the extent of what I know.

I have no axe to grind… I just wanted to buy a power supply. Now I see death as a mercy.

Jonnyguru.com only test electrical performance within the specification of the PSU, they do not test overload behavior or other Protections (like OTP), they do not measure fan speed.

So you test all of the PSUs for this? Because in the absence of a better resource than JG, I can only go off the information I can find.
Everything else is opinion, which is often valuable and I am happy to consider, but it does not make it fact.

The issue I have is, you are presenting your opinion and perference as fact, and then arguing the toss with me and building bizarre strawmen in the most protracted and unhelpful manner.
This does not inspire confidence in your opinions, or your facts, or you. Quite the opposite.
I say again. Instead of arguing with me, educate me.

If you say that the BitFenix is a better design than the G2, then at least say WHY.
E.g. I asked for reliability - you could tell me about why the protection is better. Instead you argue with me that a quiet fan is the most important feature, when I don't care about the fan.

No, I'm telling you that you overrate the Warranty

And I've stated several times. Quality and Reliability first. I prefer not to have to use warranty.

However, if two units are similar quality, similar function, similar features and similar price then warranty length and ease of RMA clinches it over the label on the side. You would be an idiot to ignore it.
So rather than trying to argue with me that a company, who everybody knows is almost entirely famous for having the best warranty, somehow has an inferior warranty policy - you could instead just tell me why a Whisper M is a better power supply. Like I originally asked... back on page 1.

For example someone messed up the paintjob of the case of the PSU in the factory

Are you serial?

You totally overrate the Warranty an want to buy or exclude PSU due to Warranty, without looking at the technical features and performance of the units FIRST.

Let me refer you to the mystical page 1, I know it is hard to find now, but here it is.

I want to invest in a good quality PSU with a long (e.g. 10 year) warranty and expected lifespan

everything I read seemed to point to these being quality PSUs and actually better than the G3.

I'm not too worried on price or noise, anywhere up to £150 or so is fine. I would rather have something reliable than cheap or quiet. I would like it to be modular.

Looking through a couple of posts on here I see the G2 isn't really recommended - so I would like to understand if this is a bad choice or if there is something better I should be considering.

Show me the bit where I say warranty is more important. Are we done? Oh wait, no here comes the inevitable strawman.

Do you buy your cars because of the Warranty as well or do you care less about that?

Personally I buy older cars because they are easier and cheaper to fix and new ones tend to go wrong more often because they are more complex.
Presumably you only buy a car if the wheels don't rotate and the engine doesn't start, otherwise it would just make too much noise..

Do you buy your Motherboards because of the Warranty or do you care less about that and look for other features instead??

Funnily enough I buy my motherboard and graphics cards the same way I buy a PSU.
Quality first, and if it has a warranty and is easier to RMA, great. The 2070s has a 4 year warranty by the way, that is a nice feature to have on an £500 investment.

Let me clarify - I use my PC, it is not just a toy or a hobby. Therefore it needs to be reliable first and foremost.
If something breaks then it needs to be replaced or repaired quickly. I do not want to wait 30 days for an RMA, or have to buy another part just to get it working while I wait for a replacement to be shipped.
I also have neither the time nor inclination to fuck about soldering extra cables to a PSU as you suggest, just so I can use the lowest possible wattage and save 10 euros.

The retailer selling the G2 offers a 48 hour swap out on EVGA products in addition to the manufacturers standard warranty which also has a cross shipping option.
If there is an alternative PSU that offers significantly better reliability, performance or features, I will of course consider it - however if there is no real difference or advantage then 48 hours beats 30 days. By a lot. And also UK RMA beats abroad because a PSU is heavy and postage is expensive.

Again this is such a basic concept it shouldn't require 3 pages of argument. It shouldn't even be necessary to explain at all. Like. Really.

Your continued assertion that none of this matters is based solely on your opinion that it doesn't matter to you. However, it does matter to me. It is a feature of the product like any other.
In the same way a quiet fan matters to you and not to me - but I don't try and convince you that you are wrong for wanting one.

But the Bitfenix does offer all that at a similar price point!

Yes, but you didn't say that, what you said was "EVGA is evil blah blah warranty doesn't matter because it might not have been painted blah blah everything else is better because it is quieter blah blah, nobody ever needs more than 300W blah blah." It has taken an inordinate amount of effort and three pages to get anything more useful from you than that.

Genuinely the useful information has been useful - but pulling out my teeth with rusty pliers would have been quicker and much less painful.

You are hellbent on 750W, but your EVGA is said to cost 97 Weight units, the Whisper M is hardly any more...
https://www.overclockers.co.uk/searc...enix+Whisper+M

Yes, most of the 750W PSUs are around the same price. Which is why I asked the question, some decades ago on page 1, is there something better than the G2?. Because there is a lot of choice in this price range.
The concept seemed simple to me - I ask on the forum if the PSU is good or if there is one better. I get an answer. I compare prices and make a decision. I buy one and put it in my PC.
Foolish I was to assume it would be that easy.

While the one I recommend (550W), is only 83 Pound.

Yes, and the 750W is £99.

A difference of £16

Less than the price of a pizza and less than the electricity to run it for a year.
Less than you would spend on one decent RGB fan.

I could not even buy enough beer to forget the trauma of asking for a PSU recommendation for the difference in price.
In the grand scheme of things it amounts to a difference of precisely fuck all.

In fact if I had bought the 750W in 2017 it would have cost the same as the 550W does today. Exchange rates are not going to get better and prices will go up after Brexit.

Now, perhaps you finally understand what I have said over and over.
I buy now for the future, not for the requirements I have today, because in the long run it is no more expensive.
Actually It is often cheaper. And it is better to have too much and not need it, than need it and not have enough.

ANd you can even chose the Formula, wich is in higher wattages a bit quieter than the Whisper M,

Which is built better, the Formula or Whisper M - it seems to me the Whisper M is the premium model?

The Straight Power 11 is a bit more

Other than the silent wing - why would I buy the Straight over the Whisper? Which design is better? Why not the Dark Power?

Some other options I have available:

Corsair TX, RMX and RMi – don’t much like the idea of the rifle bearing on the X.
Seasonic Prime and Focus – doesn’t seem to be reviews as positively as the alternatives
Fractal ION+
Silverstone Strider


I looked at the Ennermax DF – but the Twister Bearing fans do not get positive reviews. Seems the BitFenix version would be better. Although as far as I can tell it is not a genuine FDB in the BF.

[none77]

PSU with higher wattage can be quiter than PSU with lawer wattage in the same load, not always they got the same PCB, heatsinks, ect, some times the fan not spin in law wattage. of course it can be noiser, you have to check single PSU, cybernetics got nice database.

[hello_there_123]

PSU with higher wattage can be quiter than PSU with lawer wattage in the same load, not always they got the same PCB, heatsinks, ect, some times the fan not spin in law wattage. of course it can be noiser, you have to check single PSU, cybernetics got nice database.

Usually it's far better economically to buy a higher end, less noisy PSU to boot rather than get an unnecessarily high wattage (650W and up) PSU with the assumption that it will run quieter, which is 90+% of the time not true.

[ehume]

I think what none77 had to say was, to put another way: data beats theory every time. Best to read reviews on each particular model you are considering.

[Stefan Payne]

PSU with higher wattage can be quiter than PSU with lawer wattage in the same load, not always they got the same PCB, heatsinks, ect, some times the fan not spin in law wattage. of course it can be noiser, you have to check single PSU, cybernetics got nice database.

Only if we are talking about two completely different units.

FOr example be quiet Dark Power Pro P11, 550-750W vs 850W
Or the old Corsair RMx/i with up to 650W and 750-1000W.

That are two examples for technically two completely different units yet having the same name.

If we're talking about _THE SAME_ unit, that is never true.
For example Bitfenix Whisper M...

[Stefan Payne]

Ad Hominems/personal Attacks are not good.
If you ask, there will be people telling you its bad for many reasons.

Anything else is pointless and a waste of money because you do not need it right now. <<< This is your logic. See why it is flawed?

The difference is that an 8 Core CPU gives you an advantage, a 1000W PSU in a 200W PC does not.

Why buy a 750W PSU instead of a 550W? Because it is almost the same price.

...and gives you no benefit at all...
THat is the point.
Even at the same Price, you get a louder units, that causes more damage and then what?
Lower efficiency at lower loads?

You're arguing about putting 255 wide Tyres on your Vauxhall Corsa with 50bhp because they are the same price as the 155 ones.
Yes, and?? No benefit at all either, only disadvantages...

You say you can't predict the future, and now apparently you can.

No you can't but you can guess something about how it was in the past.
You just assume that 750W is "more future Proof", when there is absolutely no reason to believe that...

Oh wait, so it did increase after all.

Not for the normal Desktop Market. High End Desktop did.
GPU did not, they are at ~250W for the most part since 2006 when ATi released the Radeon HD 2900XTX.
Because there are physical limitations for power consumption and you just can not cool (much) more than that reliable.
Same with CPUs. Where 140W TDP was common, its 100W today.

Now I need to buy another PSU.

You need to anyway.
If you have a 750W+ PSU from 2006, you should have replaced it at least once.
So where is the higher wattage more future proof??
Its not...
And if you for example look at a Corsair HX1000W (80plus White), you even get a really long PSU...
And it would still not work (well) with modern GPUs since Kepler or especially Maxwell.

Because it is almost the same price and if I need more than 350W in the future it costs me nothing extra because I already have it

There is no reason to believe that you will need it.
And PSU become obsolete, even if they still work.
Its not the best idea to use 10 Year old PSU with modern Hardware, at no point in time was that a viable option ever.
And there is no reason to assume that it will be the case ever either.

Because that happened:
https://www.tech-review.de/include.p...80d78ab017deeb

Also: Did you see the Reviews about the 3950X??
Consumes the same power as the 3900X...

But it may not be THAT system in the future. It might be a DIFFERENT system. Why can you not accept this?
There is minimal difference in price for the extra you get. You are literally wasting no money.

1) and that System might need a new PSU anyway, why can you not accept that?
2) because it is very unlikely that we will have 200W CPUs in the normal Desktop ever, because that makes the Motherboards just too expensive. for the low end Boards.

Because, unlike you, I cannot predict what will happen in the future.

Exactly and why do you believe that you will need a higher wattage PSU "In the future", when the normal Desktop Plattforms reduced the max. TDP of the CPUs by 25% and the nominal CPUs that are well affordable are usually in the 65W TDP Range for the most part??

Well we can get a 750W PSU for about the same as a 550W for a start...

wich is said to have mediocre protections, very high OPP Point at 140% (or more), wich means that the 750W G2 might switch off at 1050W or 87,5A.
While a good 550W might switch off at 120%, wich equals to 660W or 55A.
So we're really talking about 32,5A difference (or up to). and with multi Rail its an even bigger difference.

Also the ones I recommended have a seperate OTP Implementation. And the fan Controller on the Super Flower units seem to be a bit on the weird side. Even looks like they have only a couple of steps for the fan RPM.

You can see that here:
https://www.techpowerup.com/review/e...-g2-650/6.html
The steps are off, low, medium and high. And that's it.

Sorry but I don't see the difference. What you are saying is if CWT makes a power supply and it is sold by somebody else it is OK. If Superflower makes a power supply and it is sold by somebody else, it is not OK....

Because Badge Engineering is what EVGA Does. Thes take a thing from a Manufacturer, put their Label on. You get THE SAME UNIT from other Companies, the difference is the Label.

The other way is to ask a manufacturer to develop something for you, according to your specification.
The difference is that you get something DIFFERENT or better and not the same stuff with a different label on it.

Non Sequitur. I recall it used to be accepted that Superflower > CWT

That was before Insiders of the Industry educated us on how it really is and talked about what they have seen.

Super Flower has how many designs, since 2012? three??? Golden Green, Leadex and now the shortened, "improved" Leadex. And that's about it.

CWT does exactly what you want. If you want a Dumpster Fire, you get it. If you want something good, you get it - if you pay for it.

But hey, lets ignore that EVGA had a couple of PSU that blew up or just died on Overload.
EVGA G3 and B3 are the more known ones. But also the 550 and 650W GS dies when the minor rails are overloaded, UVP On 12V is not there, OTP is unknown but probably not either...
Or look at the last two Reviews on this site, before the FSP Hydro...


How many duds are fine for a Company??
Especially if you look at the EVGA G5, wich is a new unit based on an ancient Plattform (be quiet Power Zone or NZXT Hale 90 V2)...
Also a dud.

So now we have: EVGA Bronze units (or lower): Mostly meh to bad.
EVGA Gold: G1 is an Aurum, G2 not too bad, first Super FLower, G3 can blow up in some wattages, G5 high Ripple. GS (550/650W) dies on minor rail Overload, lacking protection, GQ is not tested, G1+ also not that good (especially at higher wattages).

And so on for other wattages.

where are the really good EVGA PSU??
They get annihilated by many other PSU Companys, for example Corsair, be quiet. At the Moment also Bitfenix and some others.

Most of the EVGA PSU aren't that great...

Personally I couldn't care who makes it, or what brand is on the side of it. What I want to know is if it is good. If there are known issues and if there is something better.

There is a ton of PSU that are far better than EVGA.
And also there are people reporting failures with the Leadex units. I know a Guy from the german PCGH Forum, who had his Leadex fail on him a couple of times for example.
Might also have been an EVGA G2, don't remember. Are more or less the same anyway.

The reason I picked the EVGA G2 was because it was cheaper than the Leadex, came with more warranty got good reviews and I could save £10 on delivery.

The Leadex has one thing that makes it special, wich the G2 does not have:
The 9 pin "Universal" Connectors wich can be used for PCIe and CPU. As well as the LED lighting for said connectors.
And also the availability in White (wich is what I own. THe 650/750W Leadex 2 in White. Has awesome connectors, the best I've ever seen but they botched the fan controller).

As for the Warranty:
If your G2 fails, you might get a G5 back. Do you really want that?
Or possibly something even worse than that, as EVGA doesn't seem to know what they are doing.

TO my knowledge, they still haven't standardized their Pinout - wich Corsair did and some other people also used the Corsair layout. Cougar GX-F, Bitfenix Whisper M, just to name two.

If the Leadex branded version was cheaper I would have chosen that instead. I asked on here for more information on the G2 to see if there was something better I could choose instead.

Yes there are better options, wich you seem to ignore because you want that EVGA, despite EVGA having a pretty bad Track Record in PSU, that is comparable to Thermal Take for example.

Not that it is really relevant, but apparently they were brand new and DOA and acknowledged by BitFenix to be a faulty batch, you can watch it if you are at all interested.

Its not like EVGA ever had problems with PSU, right? Like the Exploding B3 and G3.
The GS with 550 and 650W also dies easily due to no OCP On the DC-DC Modules or the Supervisior...

And where did you hear that it was a faulty Batch??
Just because of one guy in a youtube Video??

One of the first thing I do when purchasing a product is to search forums and youtube for known problems.

With that there is hardly anything that you'd ever buy becuase many have known problems.
And on the other hand, with a good name and brand, you can rectify a shitty product as people "believe in you"...

And its also possible that there are just many people buying said product, thus you read more about failed units...

But, as said, if you have a strong brand (like EVGA) and people come to you first and not the Forums, that also makes it look better than it is and people might say.
"I had 3 failed units in the last 6 Months, but the replacement was super quick, I asked for the RMA and the next day they shipped a new unit to me"

Or do you know one of the most common faults of one of the units for a known manufacturer?
People using old cables from an older generation of PSU...
That looks like Short, PSU dead or something. But its not, it was USER ERROR....
And back in the days, it was the "Ketchup and Mustard" Cables that some people, who have no idea what the colors mean, bash the color coding.
That means you could visually inspect the cable and see if the cable was compatible within seconds, without the need to measure anything.

A few reports is probably nothing. If there are dozens with the same problem, probably best to avoid.

no, its not.
It means nothing.
It can mean that the PSU is just very common in that Forum/Region. Nothing more, nothing less...

You suggested the Whisper M. I searched. I found. That is the extent of what I know.

You will find that for every PSU, especially if people think its a good idea to use the Cables from a THermaltake or Silverstone PSU with the new one....

So you test all of the PSUs for this?

Yes, I look for Reivews that do test that and think about that myself. I don't just take what other people tell me at face value. Especially if I don't know much about them.

Because in the absence of a better resource than JG, I can only go off the information I can find.

TweakPC.de is the best, by far.
Tomshardware/Techpowerup is fine for some things, their Fan RPM are to be taken with a grain of salt as its done at ~40°C Ambient
Computerbase.de is somewhat OK as well as Kitguru.

There are a couple of sites that do it better. Realhardtechx did a PSU Review List, wich doesn't seem to be all that recent, sadly...

If you say that the BitFenix is a better design than the G2, then at least say WHY.

I did a couple of times.
Working Protection, mutliple OCP Channels for 12V
Compatibility to Corsair Type 4 Cables
PCIe Cables only have one Connector per Cable
You get Replacement Cables at every corner
Quiet fan Controller (450 and 550W), decent for 650-850W

Even lower wattage (550W) units work with "Problematic" GPUs such as the MSI 1080ti, VEGA and co.

There is a Reason why the Whisper M is in my PC right now and not the Leadex 2!
Even though its the 850W unit.

The Corsair HX750i is in another PC (and not used because of the Nanoxia 5B)

E.g. I asked for reliability - you could tell me about why the protection is better. Instead you argue with me that a quiet fan is the most important feature, when I don't care about the fan.

Yes, because there are no real unreliable units in that segment. And even if, we wouldn't know anyway!
Only the Manufacturer knows how reliable a unit is! And to an extent a big eTailer, but only after 14 Days over here. (Buyers Remorse ahoi).

But if you ask, who I trust:
I'd trust almost everyone over EVGA. Hell, even the higher end Thermaltake I'd trust more.

And I've stated several times. Quality and Reliability first. I prefer not to have to use warranty.

WE can not rate the quality, only electrical engineers can do that!
Everyone who claims to rate the Quality and isn't an engineer or at least works in the Industry, is just wrong!
There are a couple of people here who have some insight into PSU Production but they aren't Reviewers (anymore) and worke(d) in the PSU Industry.

Reliability is also something that is not provable and like believing in GOD. With a Caviat: The Manufacturer of the unit knows about the Reliability. That means that Only EVGA knows how reliable EVGA PSU are, only Corsair knows how reliable Corsair PSU are. And so on.
Its also highly dependant on Luck as well.

So with that said, I don't see why the Bitfenix isn't trustworthy or you exclude the be quiet Straight Power 11 either.
Especially since some say that FSP is said to be a rather good manufacturer with low failure rates (and mostly make their money with OEM Deals btw.)
With CWT you get what you want to pay for and specify...

Especially since there is nothing bad said about the SP11, though its pretty new as well....

Are you serial?

Yes, look at the Warranty Terms!
Here I quote it for you:

Products that are exposed to liquid, liquid residue or excessive humid environments resulting in rust, moisture, dampness, stains, corrosion or liquid spills on components, hardware or electronics. Burns or component flare-ups as a result of a liquid accident or spill.

If you smoke in the Room your PC is in, you don't get Warranty (much) as well. Its in the Terms!

https://www.evga.com/warranty/power-supplies/

There are other things that allows EVGA to just reject your claims...

Other than the silent wing - why would I buy the Straight over the Whisper? Which design is better? Why not the Dark Power?

For what? The Dark Power is what, 30€ More than the Straight Power??
At 750W, yeah, get the 850W Dark Power (due to the PCB used, NOT because of the Wattage!)
Otherwise the Straight Power 11 is better, if you don't want/need the PSU to regulate the fans or the connectors that the Dark Power has.

Some other options I have available:

Corsair TX, RMX and RMi – don’t much like the idea of the rifle bearing on the X.
Seasonic Prime and Focus – doesn’t seem to be reviews as positively as the alternatives
Fractal ION+
Silverstone Strider

a) Good Rifle > shitty FDB. That means nothing. But why not the HXi?? I mean, if you want "reliable"??
b) the Focus has Problems with some Graphics cards, scuh as ASUS GTX 970 Strix, Prime has a bad fan. ANd Seasonic was the 660W that I talked about in my last post, that didn't run with VEGA. Remember: I modified my 450W Bitfenix Formula and with that it worked well as well.
c) Fractal Ion up to 760W seems OK, the 860W is shit because its too much for the design
d) wich strider? Platinum, Titanium, GS V3.0??
The Platinum is somewhat OK, find it a bit expensive and the 750W lacks Connectors. The GS V3 is not bad, but fan bearing is not known (Silverstone didn't say), can be RIfle or FDB, doesn't have to be. Can be simple Sleave. Don't know and don't want to destroy the fan in mine. Connectors are plenty, short unit but not really what you're looking for. Titanium is not something I'd even consider.

I looked at the Ennermax DF – but the Twister Bearing fans do not get positive reviews. Seems the BitFenix version would be better. Although as far as I can tell it is not a genuine FDB in the BF.

The Twister in the PSU and the one you can buy might be different and the one in my Platimax and the Triathlor was fine (though the 2000rpm at 250W or more on the Triathlor was not)...
Though the fan was a bit flimsy, wich shouldn't be a problem if you don't put something inside when the fan rotates.


Best fans should be used by be quiet btw.

[MonkeH]

I think what none77 had to say was, to put another way: data beats theory every time. Best to read reviews on each particular model you are considering.

Yeah, I think that is probably the best plan. Ill go back to what I started off doing and reading up myself and checking the amazon feedback.
I suspect there is very little in practical terms between the good units and all will do the job fine.