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Thread: Patent for PSU with a battery?

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    Default Patent for PSU with a battery?

    Am I wrong or is this just a patent for a PSU with a battery (on the DC side)?

    https://patents.google.com/patent/US6342736B1

    Like the Nipro?

    http://www.nipron.com/dc_ups/dc_ups/#400w

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    At the risk of being wrong (what's new)

    Does not the first have the battery on the output, while the Nipro has it on the input (before the oscillator), if so it has an advantage when the load is tiny, as there is then only the load to power. But how on Earth can one patent obvious ideas?

    Regardless, why are patents in such obscure language; this one is not even coherent. How did Einstein ever cope when he was a patent clerk.
    Last edited by ashiekh; 02-09-2019 at 12:05 PM.

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    Neither have to convert DC to AC when the battery is the source. That's the main point.

    So much power is lost from AC to DC conversion to charge the battery in a typical UPS. Then to convert the battery's DC to AC only to be converted again to DC by the PSU.

    Of course, you already know this.

    Everytime the "idea" of putting the UPS battery on the DC side comes up in meetings, it gets shot down by "well, what's going to keep the monitor running so you can see what's going on?"

    But yeah... hard to believe someone can patent this. Especially when one of the guys who "wrote" the patent was a sales person for Chloride and should know how obvious this idea is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonnyGURU View Post
    Neither have to convert DC to AC when the battery is the source. That's the main point.
    How so, one is an ATX supply with 3 voltages (3.3, 5 and 12V); are you saying they have batteries for each voltage?

    What would be cool is super-capacitors on the 12V line (from which the 3.3 and 5V are often derived on modern supplies) so the supply could hold up for power glitches, at which point there is less worry about the monitor. A 10F 16V bank is over 1000J (720J at 12V) and so could hold up a 350W load for about 2 seconds, more than enough for the typical glitch, and could probably fit in an ATX supply and cost less than $10.

    I have a 400F (15V) bank that would have no problem starting a car.
    https://www.instructables.com/id/Con...er-Capacitors/

    If one just wired up a 10F array across the 12V line and let it run down to 11.4 (ATX specs) one would have 70J, which at 350W would hold up for 200 mS. If one instead derived all 3 voltages (3.3, 5 and 12) from a core 12V one could use much more of the 720J available, say one half, which would yield a 1 second hold up time (at 350W).
    Last edited by ashiekh; 02-09-2019 at 03:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashiekh View Post
    How so, one is an ATX supply with 3 voltages (3.3, 5 and 12V); are you saying they have batteries for each voltage?
    The conversion to the minor rails is done after the DC input.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashiekh View Post
    What would be cool is super-capacitors on the 12V line (from which the 3.3 and 5V are often derived on modern supplies) so the supply could hold up for power glitches, at which point there is less worry about the monitor. A 10F 16V bank is over 1000J (720J at 12V) and so could hold up a 350W load for about 2 seconds, more than enough for the typical glitch, and could probably fit in an ATX supply and cost less than $10.
    $10? No. That much capacitor storage (enough to keep the PC running for more than a couple minutes) would be more than $10 and Li-Ion batteries would be cheaper than that.

    Besides... someone already came up with the "bank of caps" that goes into the 5.25" bay. I can't find the link to it right now, but I think they sold about two.


    Quote Originally Posted by ashiekh View Post
    If one just wired up a 10F array across the 12V line and let it run down to 11.4 (ATX specs) one would have 70J, which at 350W would hold up for 200 mS. If one instead derived all 3 voltages (3.3, 5 and 12) from a core 12V one could use much more of the 720J available, say one half, which would yield a 1 second hold up time (at 350W).
    We're talking about a UPS. Not increased hold up time. One second? Big whoop.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashiekh View Post
    I have a 400F (15V) bank that would have no problem starting a car.
    https://www.instructables.com/id/Con...er-Capacitors/
    Also here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7CtqmfMrWI

    You realize how much those capacitors cost new, right? I mean... unless you salvaged them out of something else. But new parts aren't typically manufactured and sold using salvaged parts.
    Last edited by Jon Gerow; 02-09-2019 at 05:18 PM.

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    That the conversion is done later is my whole point, namely an oscillator after the battery (you were asking how they differ).

    Here is 20F for $15 new and that includes shipping
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/16V-20F-Ult...NsDA:rk:9:pf:0
    Yes, I think 1 second IS a big whoop, as most power drops are of short duration and it covered your comment concerning 'what about the monitor'.

    My own super-capacitor UPS can hold up a computer for a minute or two, but yes, those capacitors are expensive new.
    I actually decommissioned the unit as electrical losses were costing me $1 per watt each year.

    At the time I needed a distraction from the demands of a new job and made a solid oak carrier for the six pack.
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    Last edited by ashiekh; 02-09-2019 at 04:51 PM.

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    We're proposing two different things here. I'm talking about a UPS. You're just talking about increased hold up time. Can we pick one topic and stick with it?

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    A most excellent point

    I have some sine-wave UPS units and if ever I need them again (I moved to a place with much more reliable electricity) I will probably get lithium batteries for them.

    Or the 6 2600F capacitors in series, that is 45000J at 14.4V, about half of which is available till the UPS thinks the 'battery' is flat; that is about a minute at 350W
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    Last edited by ashiekh; 02-10-2019 at 11:41 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonnyGURU View Post
    Everytime the "idea" of putting the UPS battery on the DC side comes up in meetings, it gets shot down by "well, what's going to keep the monitor running so you can see what's going on?"
    That's such an obvious point and yet I never considered it.

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    Yeah. I laugh when during the Nipron demonstration video when she unplugs the PC and the message pops up on the monitor....

    https://youtu.be/O38h8sb21Ho

    Who's going to see that message on the monitor????

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