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Thread: Facing a strange issue with Corsair CX550

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by ridgid13579 View Post
    I'd assume that answer would be from a level 1 tech support person, at that point they're basically reading off a script...
    Which remains significant if it really is in a script

    Quote Originally Posted by ridgid13579 View Post
    What do you do with 12 ups'? None are being used? Are you running a scrapyard or is this part of your work??
    Used to work on the Navajo Nation (Arizona), and there one really needs a UPS; most of them were units I collected when they were retired. Made a project of trying to keep the old batteries running

    http://www.instructables.com/id/Reve...cid-Batteries/

    Heated blankets only kept running on sine-wave units, so I collected as many as I could. Where I am now has very few power glitches, but I still wonder about using a Li-Ion battery in one.

    The ferro-resonant unit I got while in Illinois but batteries were getting expensive so I converted it to run on super-capacitors

    http://www.instructables.com/id/Conv...er-Capacitors/

    till it dawned on me it was eating up around $100 of electricity a year.

    Quote Originally Posted by ridgid13579 View Post
    You do know most grocery stores use the cheapest back-ups/stepped ups for their pos machines at checkout, and they seem to work just fine, even though the power supply is sub optimal in those computers (as cheap as possible).
    Perhaps because they are not APFC supplies?
    Last edited by ashiekh; 05-21-2018 at 10:25 PM.

  2. #92
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    Found the CyberPower quote

    https://www.cyberpowersystems.com/pr...5u-gaming-ups/

    "
    POWER OUTPUT
    ACTIVE PFC COMPATIBLE

    Many gaming systems use an energy efficient Active Power Factor Correction (APFC) power supply and may only be compatible with a battery backup that delivers sine wave power output. Adding this battery backup to your gaming setup provides advanced sine wave power to keep you playing when power interruptions occurs
    "

    https://dl4jz3rbrsfum.cloudfront.net..._Solutions.pdf
    "
    THE IMPORTANCE OF ACTIVE PFC AND SINE WAVE POWER

    Shutdown can occur because simulated sine wave output has a power gap in each cycle. When the UPS system switches to battery current, a power supply with an Active PFC circuit may detect that power gap and shut itself down.
    "

    http://www.cstenet.com/cyberpower/fi...heet-01-11.pdf
    "
    This gap may cause power interruption for equipment with Active PFC power supplies when switching from AC power output to simulated sine wave output (battery mode).

    Check your computer manufacturer’s specifications to determine if your system uses an Active PFC power supply.
    "

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=yPZfTYZ2u9Y
    Last edited by ashiekh; 05-22-2018 at 03:29 AM.

  3. #93
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    ^^Well it would have been a lot simpler if my CX550 simply shut down whenever there was a power cut(& switchover happened) but sadly it shuts down only when under moderate load.From my point of view that negates this cyberpower "tech support answer" because as per this answer activePFC psu simply can't work at all with non-sine wave UPS which from my experience is not the case(it can work under certain conditions).The APC tech support faq I posted in one of my earlier post seems much better than this cyberpower answer as APC faq at least suggests that activePFC psu may work with non-sine wave UPS but at the cost of drawing extra power during switchover.

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    That's not at all what the Cyberpower tech wrote.
    It may work, it may not, it depends on allot of factors.
    I've mentioned them before but the main factor is where in the sine wave cycle the power failure occurs.
    At 50Hz a complete sine wave cycle is 20ms long.
    If the power failure occurs right at the falling edge of the sine wave (zero crossing point) the PSU will have already been running on the stored charge in the bulk capacitor for approx 4 to 5ms.
    Then the UPS has a switchover time that they state is between 4 to 8ms.
    The output from that UPS is then a modified square wave.
    Meaning you could be spending another 1/4 of a cycle at the zero crossing point, adding another 4 to 5ms.
    Oh, and the other main factor is of course the load on the PSU itself.
    Higher load simply means more energy is being discharged from the capacitor when there is no grid voltage available for the reasons listed above.

    The ATX spec calls for a holdup time of 16ms at 100% load (which is a full cycle at 60hz, but not 50hz as I mentioned).
    As you can see you can easily come very close to this, further to that many PSU's don't actually have the necessary hold-up time to begin with.
    Techpowerup for example tests for this, scroll down to "Hold-up Time"
    https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/.../CX600M/5.html
    The Corsair CX600M for example scored 6.8ms, quite far below the 16ms required.

    Edit: another hold-up test this time CX550M: https://www.hardwareinsights.com/cor...e-hold-up-time
    With this hold-up time being so short, not even a UPS (neither a cheap/off-line model, nor an older one with worn out relays) may help you under full load, as its own transfer time may be longer than this.
    Last edited by Per Hansson; 05-22-2018 at 08:18 AM. Reason: Changed link to Corsair CX600M review
    "The one who says it cannot be done should never interrupt the one who is doing it."

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to Per Hansson For This Useful Post:

    Gta555 (05-22-2018)

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    As I understand it, it was the UPS that declared overload (after aging over a year), so perhaps I should have put this APFC issue in a thread of its own. Mixing the two was not very clever on my part.

    That the CX550M/CX600M does not meet the ATX spec on holdup time is another surprise.


    But continuing with the APFC discussion

    http://www.vicorpower.com/documents/...active-pfc.pdf

    "
    It is important to remember that a well designed power factor correction circuit will faithfully replicate distortion present in the incoming line voltage, so it is essential to use a low distortion voltage source when evaluating power factor correcting circuits.
    "

    No wonder the circuit is not too happy when feed a rectangular wave; but I finally begin to understand
    http://digilander.libero.it/hibone/U...est_Report.pdf
    where the UPS output voltage is not so high, but the resultant primary cap voltage is.


    As I see it we now have four sub-threads (in the order of discovery in this thread)

    * the UPS overload issue

    * the APFC issue of over-voltage on the primary capacitor when run on a rectangular wave

    * the APFC issue of shutting down on a rectangular wave

    * the sub ATX spec holdup times

    that are probably best dealt with separately.
    Last edited by ashiekh; 05-22-2018 at 12:04 PM.

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    Hello Per sir a fan of yours.. I have a query sir

    Sir even if we take that hold up time of 8 ms , but that is at 100% load .. His load won'tt even be more than 150 watts at max .. So dont you think hold up time for his config/load should exceed 25ms ? 550/150 x 8 .. I know it won't be exactly like that but still roughly should be in same range ?

    That leaves enough room for ups to make a switch even after taking into account points mentioned by you

    And if hold up time or long transfer time of ups was responsible won't the PC just simply Restart ? Why would UPS give overload beep ? Unless it is drawing more power (inrush current +PC load) than what UPS can provide ?
    Last edited by Gta555; 05-22-2018 at 12:55 PM.

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    I don't think the problem is holdup time; I suspect the issue is refilling the partially empty capacitors (with a hot NTC resistor) is overloading the UPS. This was proposed earlier in this thread, but a lot of other interesting stuff has entered since.

    Perhaps we could keep this thread for

    * the UPS overload issue

    and separate out what turned up subsequently

    * the APFC issue of over-voltage on the primary capacitor when run on a rectangular wave (Per Hansson)
    * the APFC issue of shutting down on a rectangular wave (CyberPower Systems)
    * the sub ATX spec holdup times (Per Hansson)
    Last edited by ashiekh; 05-22-2018 at 04:05 PM.

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    My theory is what I've mentioned in some of my posts before:
    It's a combination of all these issues.
    He claims the setup worked initially.
    As can be seen in my previous post that could be down to just luck:
    Depending on where in the waveform the power is cut you will have a different scenario.

    Anyway, probably the APFC circuit has damaged the bulk filtering cap a bit when running from a modified square wave.
    Probably the batteries in the UPS are complete shit by now.
    (I personally hate plastic UPS cases with no fans, just an ideal way to kill batteries and start fires).
    Probably the relays in the UPS are a bit worn now causing longer switch over time.
    etc etc etc.
    "The one who says it cannot be done should never interrupt the one who is doing it."

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    I would also like to thank Per Hansson, as I had no idea about all these issues with the interaction of rectangular wave UPSs and Active PFC power supplies.
    Last edited by ashiekh; 05-22-2018 at 06:12 PM.

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    Quite a lot of good info is now posted in this thread which I really appreciate.

    @Per Hansson My UPS batteries are still providing backup with 400W FSP psu so either the "APFC circuit has damaged the bulk filtering cap a bit when running from a modified square wave" or "Probably the relays in the UPS are a bit worn now causing longer switch over time" might be the reason. I will update it here whenever I find new info or if I buy new UPS. Also CX550 latest version is supposed to be better than CX500/CX550M so I am hoping it has improved hold-up time too.

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