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Thread: Corsair AX1600i in-cable caps: function(s) and implication(s)

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    Question Corsair AX1600i inline/in-cable caps + vsense wires: function(s) and implication(s)

    Hi!

    I'm replacing the AX1500i (within grace period) with the AX1600i. My situation and motivations mostly aside for now as far as this thread goes (out-of-scope).

    As far as the function of those in-cable-caps go, I found the following:

    Quote Originally Posted by jonnyGURU View Post
    ...

    They're there for ripple suppression.

    The further you move the capacitors from the load (like the CableMod cables have them in the MIDDLE of the cable), the less effective they are.

    But we're talking a very small amount of filtering. You could take them off altogether. For example: Full load on the RM1000i's +12V, you're looking at 17.5 mV with the caps vs. 25.9 mV without.
    And:
    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Payne View Post
    I think those Caps are more for EMV and to rectify the things MoBo and GPU manufacturers do.
    Quote Originally Posted by TELVM View Post
    And sizeable ones may help with handling humongous transients like those from some modern GPUs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Behemot View Post
    Yes, on the other hand they will not like the HF in the meantime. GP caps are good mostly as bulk, for low frequencies…
    Quote Originally Posted by TELVM View Post
    ^ Sure I wouldn't use GP caps on EPS12V or PCIe cables.

    In fact I'd only put very low ESR caps there, as close to the connectors as possible.
    Quote Originally Posted by Behemot View Post
    Yeah some do use polymers, but the Leadex Platinum for example had CrapXons KM…

    This seems to mean that the AX1600i is the slightest better at protecting the connected components with extra/additional ripple suppression/filtering, and at the same time protecting itself from the high frequencies back from the components connected to the AX1600i.

    But not all cables have in-cable-caps:
    http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/corsai...iew-34148.html (Cables & Connectors)

    So will the ripple be slightly worse for the SATA connected devices? Since those cables have both 5V and 12V cables, and in a review of a different PSU the necessity of the in-cable-caps (depending on the PSU) might be crucial: http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php...tory3&reid=177
    The table below will show you the results of the experiment.
    http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules/NDR...owerCache2.jpg "Oscope/T5-12V-NoPowerCache2.jpg":
    Although that seems to still remain under the 120mV max ripple ATX specification for the 12v rails.

    1. Should I be worried if I have to add an extension cable to the 24pin ATX cable? Making the in-cable-caps less effective to a point of being problematic under specific (hypothetical) conditions? I hate to ruin a perfectly well designed PSU system with my ignorance. I might need to use an extension cable, because of the three-quarter "circular U-turn" cable installation in my PC chassis behind the MB and also because of the bulgy in-cable-caps bundle close to the ATX connector, and shorter total length AX1600i ATX cable compared to the AX1500i. The flat cable installation with the longer AX1500i ATX cable is prefered in my case, but for a number of out-of-scope reasons I will be most likely going for the AX1600i in the end.

      I'll try to get a 15cm ATX extension cable with good gauge/quality. I've one from Phobia, but it's 30cm long, so I'll try to avoid using that for this situation. Any suggestions is also welcome in this regard. Any prefered extension cables?

      Edit: I can't find a better as short as possible extension cable and as dependable as this: https://www.startech.com/Cables/Comp...ds~ATX24POWEXT
      /Edit.

      Edit2: the above plan is a bad idea, because (vsense): http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/show...1&postcount=28

      So Cass-Ole's is the most recommended solution with the AX1600i when ATX cable length is insufficient. But not extending it at the MB end.
      /Edit2.
    2. Should I be worried that the AX1600i might be worse for the SATA devices than the AX1500, because of a different ripple suppression design and no in-cable-caps for the SATA cables?
    3. Do we know the brand and model or any other specs of the in-cable-caps? Lifetime estimation? Is it the weakest-link or will something else probably fail first in the PSU within 15-20 years?


    I've started this thread, because I'm a bit worried in the context of this thread. And my technical knowledge is much more limited than most here.

    Excuse the limited scope and lack of realistic risk estimation. I just want to avoid making silly mistakes when it actually could make a difference one day in the future. I prefer being prepared and taken known worst-cases into account.

    Thank you in advance for any feedback.
    Last edited by ZenBalancer; 01-23-2018 at 11:08 AM. Reason: clarity + extension cable link addition + additions + thread scope adjustment + minor correction.

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    The following thread might provide some insight:
    http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14935
    "The one who says it cannot be done should never interrupt the one who is doing it."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Per Hansson View Post
    The following thread might provide some insight:
    http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14935
    Thanks, that helps. My questions remain though. I need more reassurance to be sure. Also since high frequency back to the PSU isn't covered by that thread, nor the situation where a number of cables have caps (by design) and others not.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by jonnyGURU View Post
    Depends on the caps. Depends on the PSU. It's not a "universal" thing.

    Right now I'm working on a project where I thought we could just use Corsair's Type 4 cables to improve ripple. The unit isn't from CWT and isn't built like CWT's. The end result was some ripple got better, while some got worse. Depends on how the rails are distributed at the main PCB, what wires are shared including the ground wires, which have an effect on the ground impedance.

    ...
    Should I infer that Corsair omitted the inline caps on the SATA cables because it might make ripple worse? Or that it wouldn't matter? Also because perhaps no high frequency transients is expected back to the PSU from SATA devices unlike GPUs and perhaps also some CPUs?

    Edit2:
    What I'm, I think, most wondering is whether the inline caps is added to be better than its predecessor the AX1500i, or whether without them the ripple will be worse than the AX1500i which didn't have inline caps from the start. So by that line of thought, that the ripple might be worse on the SATA cables, since are provided without inline caps but still use the same new design of the AX1600i, while the AX1500i didn't need the inline caps to have such low DC current ripples.
    Last edited by ZenBalancer; 01-21-2018 at 04:22 PM. Reason: additions + some additional punctuation.

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    It's simple: in cable caps do absolutely nothing useful.
    The only thing they do is attenuate the signal a bit so it looks better on a scope.
    If you measure where the load is there will be no difference.

    An example: having CPU Vcore caps soldered "laying down" 90° actually affects ripple a measurable way.
    So what do you think some caps located half a mile (comparatively speaking) will do?
    "The one who says it cannot be done should never interrupt the one who is doing it."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Per Hansson View Post
    It's simple: in cable caps do absolutely nothing useful.
    The only thing they do is attenuate the signal a bit so it looks better on a scope.
    If you measure where the load is there will be no difference.

    An example: having CPU Vcore caps soldered "laying down" 90° actually affects ripple a measurable way.
    So what do you think some caps located half a mile (comparatively speaking) will do?
    So it's just for the scope measurements in reviews for the unit to do better in that regard comparatively, but the extra effort and cost in actual use totally useless? There are still enough reasons out of scope of this thread for me to still go for the AX1600i, but if more support your view, I would be less worried about my questions.

    Edit:
    But does this mean if measured on the load with an AX1500i the ripple is actually better than the "misleading" AX1600i with inline caps? Since they do better on measurements at least. But isn't the AX1500i without inline caps measured the same way basically? I'm starting to get confused a bit.
    Last edited by ZenBalancer; 01-21-2018 at 06:02 PM. Reason: corrections + addition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenBalancer View Post
    So it's just for the scope measurements in reviews for the unit to do better in that regard comparatively, but the extra effort and cost in actual use totally useless?
    Once you get a reliable unit that meets the ATX specifications, pretty much _everything_ else inside is just to make it look better in reviews anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cheapie View Post
    Once you get a reliable unit that meets the ATX specifications, pretty much _everything_ else inside is just to make it look better in reviews anyway.
    Lower ripple is of no indication of quality of DC power provided in different scenarios including crossload?

    The ATX specification is "loose and old" in a sense. Which modern PSU allows itself to get close to the 120mV max ripple fluctuations?

    It seems the point is also becoming a question of whether ripple measurements by any review for any PSU means anything at all..

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    A few thoughts: you plan to spend all this money on what appears to be the finest power supply yet built for the enthusiast market, & seem overly-concerned about the slightest electrical properties (u made a huge post), u seem obsessed with owning something that comports to a state-of-perfection, yet, you're willing to settle for a multi-color 24p extension to run it on? Ruin the look & function just like that?

    1st, I would not waste a second worrying about SATA cables & whatever hardware u intend to hook to them, that's just needless worry

    2nd, I think u need to throw some money at the extension, the 24p you linked to looks like junk to me ... 1600i?, it gets some of the nicest cables Corsair can equip it with: black, sleeved, caps, miles of 16gauge wire, and?, what appears to be premium high-current 13Amp gold tips ... that 24p extension u linked to?, probably junk cost-cut 18gauge 9Amp pins crimped to junk 18g wire & white connectors. See this one by OKGear?, the wire text says 16AWG but the reality is it's 18g wire underneath (phony 16g wire, a scam, the vendor even goes out of their way to mention it twice in the listing it is 16g & not 18g, lol ... remove the pin, strip the insulation off and pow!, skinny 18g afterall)

    1b.jpg
    So what can we do about these new premium gold tipped cables? Well, the in-cable-caps are situated at the 24pin end so they can be as close to the load as possible - if so - a 24p extension will push it away from the load 6-8-12", whatever the size of extension used. Now, were it me?, and just so u know, my case can accept a short (~8inch) extension at the case floor @the PSU so were I to own this magnificent PSU & needed an extension & wanted my caps up at the load / mthrbrd --> ? --> since these are Type4 10/18, I'd use a 10/18 extension, 100% 16AWG wire, black, round sleeved or individually sleeved (it depends) + high-current 13A Molex gold tips -or- settle for standard 13A tips
    2.jpg 3.jpg
    These are extensions I make here for myself & for my customers: they plug into PSU 10/18, then the new 24pin in the pouch couples to them for an extension-less look @the mthrbrd end

    In other words, why ruin the look & function of the premium 1600i cable when u seem obsessed with the slightest deviation from perfection? Personally, I'd try to track down a hand-made extension (24pin for mthrbrd end or 10/18 for PSU end) that uses premium wire and 13Amp tips, or, buy the parts yourself and make it (call it pre-crimped 16g wires with male/female pins, 8 inches or so ... or buy 15feet (6inches x 27 wires) of 16g wire and crimp the pins yourself, pop them into your male/female connectors)

    Find a custom sleever like Ensourced.net or MainFrameCustom.com to make exactly what u want. In the least, you need a true 16g extension to mate with your new 24pin, not a fake one, not a cheapo one

    Buy the good tips, have them sent to your sleever, link to the Catalog for standard 13A (say, similar to the silver type ax1500i high-current tips u have now) & premium gold Molex 13A tips

    edit: BitFenix offers packs of 5 of 16AWG black pre-crimped wires with identical u-shaped high-current tips your Ax1500i now uses --> in a jiffy, in a world where a person like you can't be sure who makes a premium extension, I might buy 6packs (30 wires) of the 20Cm, buy a male / female 24pin & quickly assemble a 20Cm extension your self -or- shop online for a pre-made one that can meet the same specs in the size u need. At some point, now or later, invest into the best possible extension your money can buy > treat that 1600i right Good luck
    Last edited by Cass-Ol; 01-22-2018 at 10:22 PM.
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    @ ZenBalancer, you have nothing to worry about. Those inline caps are helping a little bit with ripple suppresion and transient loads, but with a small amount. The AX1600i is already a ultra high end category, and those caps are purley to make it better under reviewers scope.
    If you take a look in the Cybenetics website and make a comparison between the Corsairs HX and HXi series or Seasonic Focus Plus Gold 750w and Antec EAG 750 you will notice that small difference that I'm talking about.
    https://www.cybenetics.com/index.php?option=database
    Just keep in mind that the motherboard and GPU VRM's will apply another filter stage of the ripple and it will be futher reduced. Anyway, at 10-30 mv ripple level, the logical circuits will not notice the difference

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cass-Olé View Post
    A few thoughts ... Good luck
    Although I've always had good experiences with Startech (brand also of the extension cable) you're most likely right as far as the gauge and comparison goes. Your solution makes more sense for close to max electrical loads and extreme workload fluctuations, and of course is much more elegant. For my purposes, controversially, the cheap one would have been fine. Which might made one wonder what do I need such a PSU for at all? It's mostly an overkill for me. But it does adhere to a few primary requirements, although out of scope for this thread, the main thing about me is utter laziness, perhaps despite appearances, and therefore the obsession about future-proof. This build contains slow efforts of 2 years, and is meant to last 15-20 years, with the minimum of 10 years.

    As far as the choice of placement of which extension cable, I've to find out whether the buldging caps bundle will fit the in comparison narrow opening from the cable-space in the back into the frontal MB space:

    I might need to use an extension cable, because of the three-quarter "circular U-turn" cable installation in my PC chassis behind the MB and also because of the bulgy in-cable-caps bundle close to the ATX connector, and shorter total length AX1600i ATX cable compared to the AX1500i.
    Edit: the following is a bad idea, because (vsense): http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/show...1&postcount=28

    So Cass-Ole's is the most recommended solution with the AX1600i when ATX cable length is insufficient. But not extending it at the MB end.
    /Edit.

    So for practical reasons I might go with the 30cm sleeved Phobia ones I already have, since even though it would make the filtering less effective, as the accumulation of feedback seems to support, the difference would at worse case be 0 to ~8.5mv more ripple (the worst case if the inline caps were totally removed). And because of the next feedback, I'm even less worried. So I might end-up not treating the AX1600i entirely right, but kudos for your feedback, it's great to have a much better alternative when needed. And now that alternative is more visible than it was before. Very nice contribution!

    Quote Originally Posted by Al3xand3r View Post
    @ ZenBalancer, you have nothing to worry about. Those inline caps are helping a little bit with ripple suppresion and transient loads, but with a small amount. The AX1600i is already a ultra high end category, and those caps are purley to make it better under reviewers scope.
    If you take a look in the Cybenetics website and make a comparison between the Corsairs HX and HXi series or Seasonic Focus Plus Gold 750w and Antec EAG 750 you will notice that small difference that I'm talking about.
    https://www.cybenetics.com/index.php?option=database
    Just keep in mind that the motherboard and GPU VRM's will apply another filter stage of the ripple and it will be futher reduced. Anyway, at 10-30 mv ripple level, the logical circuits will not notice the difference
    That is super helpful!
    Last edited by ZenBalancer; 01-23-2018 at 11:22 AM. Reason: corrections + addition.

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