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Thread: EVGA 850 B3 review @ Tom's Hardware

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    Indeed and Stefan's requirements are always a bit different than the rest of the world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Payne View Post
    Yes, Capacitors are last because they aren't that important, especially if you have to choose between better fan, better capacitors and/or working or more protections.

    I've tried measuring the temperature of the caps with my high quality 10€ Home Depot Multimeter and got something way under 50°C, even if the secondary heatsink got to around 70°C...
    Why the capacitors are not important? I think an Aishi or Sus'con (all chinese brands) are much inferior to Chemicon's, Rubicon's. Once i have measured a brand new Jun Fu capacitor rated at 2000uF and in fact had only 1600uF, and that's it a huge difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al3xand3r View Post
    Why the capacitors are not important?
    Because you don't notice them.
    And even the worst ones will last for years.

    Also if you use the caps right, the circuit is designed and layouted well, even with the worst caps of a 'named Brand' like Teapo, Su'scon, Elite, you'll get many many years out of them...

    Quote Originally Posted by Al3xand3r View Post
    I think an Aishi or Sus'con (all chinese brands) are much inferior to Chemicon's, Rubicon's.
    Depends on the Series.
    Su'scon has some interesting ones. Like the Anhydrogeneous ones.

    And the Problem with those brands is that you mean their worst series like the Su'scon MC series.
    But they also has better ones like the HX series (6-10k) or the HG Series (4-10k)....

    Same with Aishi, CapXon, ltec, Teapo and so on, when you say them you mean the worst series they have. Like Teapo SC, but never their better ones like the ST series...

    In the end it comes all to the point:
    You get what you paid for!
    If you want cheap, you'll get less reliable things.
    If you want quality, you have to pay more...

    That's why a Miele Washing machine cost about 3-4 times what a normal one from Bosch, AEG, Whirlpool and so on would cost.
    But you expect a Miele to last at least 10 years and more...

    That's the same with all products. Quality cost money. Sometimes a couple of times than the 'standard component'...

    Look at fans:
    The cheapest ones are sould for 50 cent.
    The best ones are at around 20-30€...

    Quote Originally Posted by Al3xand3r View Post
    Once i have measured a brand new Jun Fu capacitor rated at 2000uF and in fact had only 1600uF, and that's it a huge difference.
    Yes, and?
    The big bulk capacitors with 390µF/420µF have often only 330µF, even Panasonic ones...
    At least the one I've measured (coming out of a Cougar GX600 V3)...

    And 2000µF * 20% = 1600.
    So totally expected, kinda...

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    Stefan ye're right here about caps. Sometimes the capacitors from the brands who are known for low quality last more than few years. But, in a Chinese brand i don't know if the quality control is the same as in a Japanese brand. If one capacitor is bad in a PSU from the begining, then all capacitors in that PSU is being in trouble and sooner or later that PSU will fail.
    I have a High Power Element Bronze 600W (Sirtec) (from 2010) with Teapo capacitors which is still goes strong in a secondary computer used occasionally for gaming.
    But for peace of mind i prefer a PSU with high-quality capacitors for my primary system. I own a Prime Titanium 850w and i bought it for replace another Seasonic M12D-850 wich it's still working. I've seen the ripple levels without in-cable capacitors here and at Aris, and simply i buy it. Just for peace of mind. It will last 12 years without making trouble I will be happy.

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    Question is, how can you be sure that the Japanese brand has good quality control? why asume that if the brand is Japanese, it has top notch quality control?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al3xand3r View Post
    Stefan ye're right here about caps. Sometimes the capacitors from the brands who are known for low quality last more than few years. But, in a Chinese brand i don't know if the quality control is the same as in a Japanese brand. If one capacitor is bad in a PSU from the begining, then all capacitors in that PSU is being in trouble and sooner or later that PSU will fail.
    Problem:
    You don't know that.
    You can't know that.
    It's just believing in a brand - wich I absolutely hate.

    Of course some companys are better than others due to their philosophy (and the people in charge), but we are talking about enormous component manufacturers who don't deal in enduser stuff. That's a whole different universe...

    And also stuff gets better with thime, mostly.
    So we can not have information about the 2015 series.
    If we're lucky we have Informations about the 2010 series, but most of the time we are talking about the 06 shit and earlier....

    Quote Originally Posted by Al3xand3r View Post
    But for peace of mind i prefer a PSU with high-quality capacitors for my primary system.
    1. Nippon Chemicon KZE is all but 'high quality capacitors'. It's a lower to mid end series.
    Look here:
    https://www.chemi-con.co.jp/e/catalog/aluminum.html
    Click on 'search by Group Chart', one of the bluish buttons on the top'.
    KZE seems to be one of the worse series Nippon CHemicon has to offer,

    KZN, KZM, KYB, KYA seems to be the better stuff in terms of lifetime and the other specs.
    But then again: Why use those parts if you do not have to? More reliable parts = more expensive parts = more cost for what??

    And of course:
    KZN doesn't even have a 10mm diametre 2200µF/16V type. ONLY KYB has, KZH only has 1800µF, as does KZM and KZN...

    2. On a High End PSU where you don't have to balance between fan, protection and caps that much compared to a lower end unit. So here it might be viable to do something with a decent fan and decent caps and all protections in place.
    With a budget PSU you can't have it all, you have to get to the price you want and that means sacrifices: Either protection, fan or caps. Or the topology.
    An example for this would be Seasonic S12II/M12II: It has an FDB fan and japanese caps, but topology is only double forward without DC-DC (for +5V) and only the absolute neccessary protections to call itself an ATX PSU.

    Other units these days don't have "japanese Capacitors" in this market segment but feature DC-DC, better protection.

    So what do you choose? Better/independent voltage regulation or japanese caps? Can't have both!


    So the buttom line is:
    The caps are custom made for the PSU manufacturers anyway, so you can't really know anything about it. If the cap doesn't even have a series marking on it (like you find on many 3300µF/16V Nippon Chemicon these days wich are only marked with 'W' on it.), you don't even know if it can be any better than a Teapo SC whatever...

    The capacitor debate is like arguing about religion, there aren't many hard facts out there besides the datasheets from the manufacturers.
    The information we have about lifetime/reliability of capacitors are old or very old.
    And many times the people posting the failed capacitor pictures don't care about the enviroment the capacitors were used in.

    Do Teapo SC fail sooner in a Flex ATX powersupply?
    Of course they do!
    It's way hotter in there than in most ATX PSUs these days, way worse airflow - if there is any - and other stuff...

    Quote Originally Posted by Al3xand3r View Post
    It will last 12 years without making trouble I will be happy.
    Again, you don't know that.
    You can't know that.

    Or did you forget the "IF" in the beginning?
    If it is the case, it might be true. But you can't even know if the ATX specification is around in another 5 years...

    In 12 Years, the ATX specification would be 33 Years old.

    For a comparisation: The predecessor, the AT Power Connector had a lifespan of around 10 years, maybe a couple of years more. But not that much more (3-4 Years at best).

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    Stefan, i agree with you. You are right.

    "It will last 12 years without making trouble I will be happy" it's missing "if".
    I will be happy IF it will last 12 years without making trouble. this is what I meant. Sorry for that.
    Yes, I know there is no certainty that it will last, but once if Seasonic offer 12 years warranty then they trust the quality of these PSUs. And with my positive experience with this brand i hope it will last.
    And i've paid premium.

    Question is, how can you be sure that the Japanese brand has good quality control? why asume that if the brand is Japanese, it has top notch quality control?
    I can not be sure 100% of that, but that's how it works with the products that are more expensive. At least theoretically it should work that way. Japanese capacitors brands have earned their reputation over time have not had it from the beginning. That's why companies that want to build a quality PSU are willing to pay more for them, otherwise they would not be able to reach a high level of reliability. Personally i do not even want to imagine a 1Kw PSU with Jun Fu capacitors running at it’s maximum capacity for a long time. At least I would not want that PSU to be in my system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al3xand3r View Post
    but once if Seasonic offer 12 years warranty then they trust the quality of these PSUs.
    That's a general misconseption.

    Yes you can build the PSU that it will last 12 Years or more.

    But you can also not do it and hope that most customers don't RMA the PSU or do something like require a receit of the product that reduces the RMA rate long term. And just calculate the RMA rate you expect into the price of the unit.
    Or you can also do something evil and finance the long warranty with the money you make with lower end units...

    So no, you can not expect that a long warranty means a high quality product.
    And also you can not say that a short(er) warranty means a worse product.


    The best example are things like Keysight scopes.
    They cost as much as a decent car (~20k€) but only come with 3 years warranty and an option to 5.


    Also high quality companys like MIELE don't offer 5 Years at default but an option to 5 or even 10 years .
    https://www.miele.de/haushalt/garant...gerung-479.htm

    And Miele stuff is really good and live long - they don't need a warranty to prove it...


    Buttom Line:
    Long Warranty doesn't mean that something will last.
    Short Warranty doesn't mean that something will not last.

    In the End it's part choice of components, part luck, how you use it and so much more if something will last or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Al3xand3r View Post
    I can not be sure 100% of that, but that's how it works with the products that are more expensive. At least theoretically it should work that way. Japanese capacitors brands have earned their reputation over time have not had it from the beginning.
    Yes and how long do the Chinese/Taiwanese companys do the good stuff?

    That's another thing those companys are rather young but they have also a wider variety of caps than the japanese.
    For example the lowest capacitors you find in modern PSU are Nippon Chemicon KZE. Those are at the buttom of the lineup of Nippon Chemicon.

    Teapo has something that's totally equal. It's called the SJ series.
    And that's somewhere in the middle of their lineup.

    A better example would be ltec:
    http://www.ltec.com.tw/product_e.html

    When mentioning them, you most likely talk about their LYZ and LZP series wich clearly are the worst they have.

    Again, something comparable to Nippon Chemicon KZE would be somewhere in the middle like their LZD or LXY series wich are further up their chart...

    So a japanese low cost capacitor is a mid range 'taiwanese/chinese' one.

    That's a bit like BMW and Mercedes were a couple of years ago. And are right now.
    a couple of years ago, their entry level was a 3 series or C-Class....

    VW had at that time at least two or three other models below that -> Golf, Polo and Lupo. The C-Class and 3 Series are comparable to a VW Passat - the best VW had to offer at the time was the worst Mercedes and BMW had to offer.

    And it's similar with capacitors. The Japanese brands are the 'premium ones' that concentrate on the upper ends.
    And the Chinese/Taiwanese ones have everything. But for marketing reasons you rather go for japanese caps instead of the quality Taiwanese/Chinese models...
    Last edited by Stefan Payne; 09-29-2017 at 05:45 PM.

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    So no, you can not expect that a long warranty means a high quality product.
    And also you can not say that a short(er) warranty means a worse product.
    Agree with you partially, but..
    When you pay a price for performance, and if that thing is covered by a long warranty you have the peace of mind. Because:
    1. If the unit is broke down it will be repaired or replaced whiteout additional costs. (assume isn't your fault for the malfunctioning of the PSU)
    2. Being a high quality PSU it must have a complete set of protections (OCP,OTP,UVP,OVP and so, not just marketing) a chance to blowing up the expensive components of computers are minimal (will not be covered by warranty in case of PSU failure). This is like the safety belt and airbags in the car.

    Also high quality companys like MIELE don't offer 5 Years at default but an option to 5 or even 10 years
    Yes, Miele is famous for the quality (like many other German brands) and also have a option to extend warranty just for peace of mind (of the buyer of course). It's more like an investment protection. But for that peace of mind you need to pay more. Miele costs more than four times the price of a normal washing machine, but you paying for a premium product. You don't really need an extra warranty for that washing machine because you know that is a top quality product with top quality components. And Miele have gained the reputation with time, is an old company who have always make great products.
    If we compare the price difference versus the other brand of washing machines the scale is 1:4 (with same amount of money you buy 4 other brand washing machines). The same is in our case 50 $ it will cost a average performance PSU (with 3 year warranty) and 200 $ a high performance (high reliable?) PSU (12 year warranty). So i think it's worth the money.


    The other chinese and taiwanese brands can also make good products but doesn't have a solid reputation in the industry of PSU.

    And the Chinese/Taiwanese ones have everything. But for marketing reasons you rather go for japanese caps instead of the quality Taiwanese/Chinese models
    Although those spec from Ltec or Teapo are impressive on paper i don't think that all chinese and taiwanese brand have the technology for producing really good caps to compete with best japanese caps. On paper may seem all perfect but it's a bit difference between paper numbers and real life scenarios.

    It's like a Mercedes and Dacia (a romanian car). Dacia doesn't have the Mercedes technology for producing high quality car. And the cars from this two brands aim at different market segment.
    I think that the chinese brands doesn't have a technology to compete with japaneze ones as Romanian Dacia don't have the technology to compete with Mercedes or other luxury car manufacturers. The same is with French cars, is not like German ones.

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