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Thread: Seasonic Prime 850W Review

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    Quote Originally Posted by quest for silence View Post
    What? I guess there may be a misunderstanding: would you care to elaborate?
    Yes, some things I obviously interpreted incorrectly. I'm not sure if I get this right;
    Quote Originally Posted by quest for silence View Post
    I would also overweight what Wolf wrote there:
    i.e. that specific review sample performed a bit "too much" well (while a lineup of comparable digital units *should* perform more consistently), and "regular" Primes should not be too different from (to say) an AXi (look at the THG Aris' Prime 650 review, and compare it with his 4-years old AXi reviews done for TPU), set conversion efficiency aside.
    If you think and why you think exactly this copy perform "to much" well?
    As far as I could see, Prime gives better results in tests of AXi platform, in almost every respect. And In tests preforms to well
    Quote Originally Posted by quest for silence View Post
    Other people (even engineers) may not agree.
    At the end of the day majority most interested in performance, that is what we get for the money that we invest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sblantipodi View Post
    Can you explain me this thing please?
    Is digital always better than analog in PSU world?

    Wolf in his reviews seems to complain about the ax860i because it costs like a prime and perform worse.
    This is what I understood from the review. Correct me if I'm wrong.

    Another question. What do you mean for real digital?
    Hope that a saint will help me here

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    Quote Originally Posted by sblantipodi View Post
    Hope that a saint will help me here
    Uhh did you just quote yourself?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ITelektro View Post
    If you think and why you think exactly this copy perform "to much" well?
    Because that's what Wolf wrote :
    I should be excited as all heck, but instead I kind of feel a bit nervous, like the producers of The Price is Right back when that guy got his showcase bid dead on the nose.

    See, you can't help but look at results of 0%, 0%, and 0.08%; and wonder just how in the sweet name of ketchup this is possible for a consumer grade power supply to manage. The 750W didn't do this. It was good, but not this good. With an average of only 0.027%, this just blew away everything else I have ever tested, coming within 0.01V on one rail of achieving perfect regulation, within the resolution allowed by my Extech DMM. This really shouldn't be possible on a unit you or I can go to the store and shell out a couple Benjamins for. This is, like, NASA level performance you'd expect from power supplies costing thousands. And yet, here we are, watching Seasonic somehow pull one heck of a rabbit out of their hat.

    Here's the deal, folks. I don't think you should go buy one of these expecting this kind of stability. We know it's possible now, because I have one right in front of me. BUT (Ed.) I think for every hundred or so Prime 850s, you might find one or two performing like this at most. The rest will be more like my 750W was. That is the performance you should expect. The second 750W unit, that is, not the first. Incidentally, Seasonic's official response on that first 750W unit is that it was a part of a batch of them that got out with an incorrect part.
    And because no other Prime unit tested by any major reviewer (I mean the 750 tested by Wolf here, the 650 tested by Aris @ THG, the 750 tested by Spectre @ [H]) performed "that well" (extremely well but not as well as Wolf's 850 sample).

    Last but not least, because of experience: analog PSUs don't perform always the same way, you know, so if just one specific unit excels over its siblings, then more probably that not that's the best performance, and non the typical performance you should expect from the average specimen of that SKU.

    That's probably one of the major conceptual differences/advantages of a digital over an analog PSU: samples variance. In the digital realm the control is somehow superimposed, in the analog world performance is more strictly tied to actual tolerances (in this reviewed sample those are probably extremely tight).


    Quote Originally Posted by ITelektro View Post
    As far as I could see, Prime gives better results in tests of AXi platform, in almost every respect. And In tests preforms to well
    I guess there's a chance you may still misunderstand: which tests are you referring to?


    Quote Originally Posted by ITelektro View Post
    At the end of the day majority most interested in performance, that is what we get for the money that we invest.
    As above, I guess you may have misunderstood: the key wording was
    That my original comment refers to these words, so your subsequent remark apparently does not apply at all.
    Last edited by quest for silence; 09-30-2016 at 07:54 AM. Reason: grammar corrections
    Best, Luca

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    Quote Originally Posted by quest for silence View Post
    Because that's what Wolf wrote :
    And because no other Prime unit tested by any major reviewer (I mean the 750 tested by Wolf here, the 650 tested by Aris @ THG, the 750 tested by Spectre @ [H]) performed "that well" (extremely well but not as well as Wolf's 850 sample).
    Only at cold test.
    JG did review on 750w and 850w.
    750w . This unit just averaged 0.13% stability----14mV on the 12V rail.
    850w on this thing for an average of 0.16%------ We have 12mV for the 12V rail
    Cold test is exception.
    Within these test conditions these results are expected.
    Despite the different conditions all tested Prime are between 0.1-0.4% for voltage regulation and between 10-15mV to ripple on 12v.
    Aris test conditions are different,so different results can be expected .
    That's probably one of the major conceptual differences/advantages of a digital over an analog PSU: samples variance
    Which tests are you referring to? (for digital units)

    I guess there's a chance you may still misunderstand: which tests are you referring to?
    This one
    Last edited by ITelektro; 09-30-2016 at 11:20 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ITelektro View Post
    Despite the different conditions all tested Prime are between 0.1-0.4% for voltage regulation and between 10-15mV to ripple on 12v.
    Aris test conditions are different,so different results can be expected.
    With reference to voltage stability, that's the same performance level you may get from an AXi, I mean, not the starship-class performance seen at lower temperature.

    On the other hand, the ripple and noise suppression is perhaps the best aspect of this lineup, particularly because of the extremely high efficiency, while the AXi got just 20mV on the 12V in Tazz 2012 review.


    Quote Originally Posted by ITelektro View Post
    Which tests are you referring to? (for digital units)
    It's not a matter of specific tests, it's the concept of digital PSUs, the control loop may set the performances as needed, update them with a new firmware and also adapt the behaviour dinamically.


    Quote Originally Posted by ITelektro View Post
    Which was made by Tazz (different setup, different operator).
    BTW, even so, Wolf got 0.12%, 0.20%, and 0.17% for an average of 0.16%, Tazz got 0.30%, 0.20%, and 0.11% for an average of 0.20%: can you really say which is "better"?

    The most apparent Achille's heel of the relatively aging Flextronics platform is the 5VSB load regulation, albeit, as I said above: "The "real" bad is that a comparable, "all things equal" digital counterpart of those Primes (the AXi is an about 5 years old platform) actually does not exist yet" (as a side note, it may worth to point out that even the latest refinement of this platform, the 2014 AX1500i, suffers of the same "issue", albeit it apparently improved a bit on the ripple control, with less than 10mV on all rails under 900W).

    I was curious to know if the AXi firmware updates since 2012 ever affected the electrical performances... Jon, can you say anything about?
    Last edited by quest for silence; 10-01-2016 at 06:19 AM. Reason: s/it/if
    Best, Luca

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    Quote Originally Posted by quest for silence View Post
    It's not a matter of specific tests, it's the concept of digital PSUs, the control loop may set the performances as needed, update them with a new firmware and also adapt the behaviour dinamically.
    This would make sense if we had fully digital digital units. To my knowledge, we now have the analog-analog and analog-digital (for feedback). It would be interesting if they create something similar what is done with their Sigma lenses for cameras, fine-tune the application by end user. I think it would be an absolute hit for PSU geeks.

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    The AXi hasn't had a firmware update to improve performance.

    But yes... it's a five year old product. So, while it's digital and the fact that its digital helps its performance, the fact that five year old parts are used hinders it.

    That's why when people read these reviews, they really need to pay attention to the date of the review. A "10" 5 years ago wouldn't be a "10" today. The AX1500i is even better because it's a whole year newer. Newer technologies other than the fact that its digital, like the bridgeless PFC, are used. There is a new revision of AXi in the works. It's still digital, but the digital aspect of it isn't where the real changes are made. It's in almost every other part under the hood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by quest for silence View Post
    Other people (even engineers) may not agree.

    On the other hand, we should also agree about what "digital" should mean, given that probably there's still only one "real" digital platform (the Flextronics).
    I'm curious, what kind of PSU are you referring to here?
    In my mind a real digital PSU is one where the secondary side lacks electrolytic capacitors.
    There are examples in the industrial world, and also Abit made some boards, based on a Flextronics design.
    This in my mind is what a "digital" PSU is about:
    A SMPSU whose switching frequency is high enough to not require electrolytic capacitors except for the incoming bulk filtering as the AC sine wave crosses the zero voltage point.

    "The one who says it cannot be done should never interrupt the one who is doing it."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Per Hansson View Post
    This in my mind is what a "digital" PSU is about:
    A SMPSU whose switching frequency is high enough to not require electrolytic capacitors except for the incoming bulk filtering as the AC sine wave crosses the zero voltage point.
    I feel like this may be taking things a bit too far in the given context of widely available consumer-grade PC PSUs... It would be nice to have a PSU operating in the MHz region with next to no passive components (thus killing coil whine and putting longevity in the decades), but the price for it would be monstrous.

    I believe what should be considered a digital PSU uses a programmable controller - perhaps a RISC CPU with some memory - and active digital feedback loops using ADCs and DSPs in concert with fine-grained adaptive PWM and APFC. Meaning, avoiding usage of primary and secondary controllers relying on analog voltage coupling to a fixed small set of responses and working modes; instead opting for cycle-to-cycle interactive adjustments of parameters according to a complex digital logic.

    So far, only a handful of PSUs in the consumer market fit the bill.

    The server market is a whole different story, serious upper-class PSUs there have long been digitized with direct monitoring and control of operating parameters available through an out-of-band management system. Top-notch performance is a given in that case.
    Careful what you wish for... You just might get it.

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