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Thread: PCGH will deduct points for single +12V rail PSUs. Thoughts?

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    For trying to protect itself from liability?
    Yup. something I am very, very intimately involved in on a daily basis.

    I had a supplier discontinue a product (costing me several hundred thousand dollars, not to mention the warehousing and shipping costs of providing an alternate product) simply because they wanted to avoid potential future liability. The operative word is potential. There was no proven liability, no damages, no current risk. The risk avoidance team made the decision on the possibility of some future risk.

    Avoiding being sued costs our economy billions, and billions every year.
    More than 50% of my current business is selling "safety devices"...things that don't increase production, or lower energy costs, or even provide any real increase in worker safety.

    What they do provide is CYA...the ability in a case of an accident for the company to say they provided the safest work environment possible.

    You ever wonder why the average car cost $25 K now instead of $15K of a few years ago(we have had 0 to negative inflation for the last 10 years, right) ?

    The never ending addition of safety devices, and cost of safety programs throughout the production process makes up a huge part this increased costs.

    Soon we will have rolling crash avoidance carbon-fiber super cars, that only go 25 mph, have 25 air bags get 100 miles per gallon!!!.

    Who could nay say such advances in safety and reductions in liability?

    It will be a utopia for everyone who has $10,000,000.00 to spend on a means of getting to work....

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    Quote Originally Posted by CM Phaedrus View Post
    Considering the BOM cost of adding multi-rail OCP is nickels and dimes...

    The only thing standing in the way of adding multi-rail OCP to all PSUs over 1000W is lack of customer knowledge...
    My point exactly. But, as usual, Stefan is going to argue that it's all about the Benjamins.

    Quote Originally Posted by CM Phaedrus View Post
    For the record: http://www.overclock.net/t/943852/computer-caught-fire

    Motherboard VRM fails, single rail PSU pumps a hundred amps through the shorted fet, sets the motherboard on fire. The PSU is always one of the first components blamed.

    I've seen this 3-4 times confirmed, another 2-3 maybes. Not a huge number of cases, but when it happens it means hundreds of dollars worth of damage, if not thousands, plus bad publicity for the PSU vendor.
    Ahh... yes. Been a while since I've seen this myself. Used to have a rash of MSI boards that the FETs would consonantly burst into flames. Thing is, the FET would catch fire whether you had an 18A +12V rail or 50A +12V rail. Difference being whether or not the PSU wires would light up as well. Clearly mobo problem, but everyone wanted to blame the PSU.

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    PS,

    Here's my final point. I really don't care if they want to add the criteria to their reviews. To each their own.

    To me it is like grading a PIANO on its safety features instead of its build quality and musical tone.

    Sure, a piano could fall on you and crush a child that uses it as a jungle gym...but those real, (but remote) safety concerns are best left up to the home owner and common sense, and not a music review site.

    "Well,we are going to deduct a point for the Steinway & Sons k-52 upright. Anything that is more that 4 feet off the ground has the possibility of tipping over and should include a safety wall anchor."

    JMHO.
    Last edited by mdk777; 05-25-2014 at 06:58 PM.

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    What does the build quality help when there is a failure of a component and it causes a fire?

    With high or no OCP at all, the damage will certainly be higher as with a low/reasonable OCP point. And it's something even the best components can't do anything about...

    With a reasonable set OCP you can avoid the connectors getting burned for example when someone is using a multi GPU graphics card and one of those 2x4pin to 2x8pin PCIe modular cables like corsair uses for some of their AX series PSUs...

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonnyGURU View Post
    The person that buys the $20 PSU with two +12V rails at 18A each is replacing the PSU in his Lenovo.
    Lenovo desktops have an external 12V(?) brick and DC-DC converters on the motherboard (seriously).

    Anyway, I don't care if my PSU has OCP, as long as it shuts off before the wires melt (even if it's OPP doing it) and the label doesn't lie about it having OCP when it doesn't (yes, I'm looking at you, Seasonic, and a few others).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Payne View Post
    There are three stages of Single Rail:
    Single Rail with OCP/OVP/UVP and a reasonable maximum Current. @+12V
    Single Rail with OCP/OVP/UVP and an unreasonable maximum current (ie about 750W and more) @+12V
    Single Rail without OCP/OVP/UVP @+12V

    And there is Multi rail.

    As you may know (or not): Multi rail is the most expansive variant of those, while single rail without +12V protection is the cheapest...

    You think it's fair to rate a Multi Rail unit with a reasonable OCP/OVP/UVP and OTP (with a protection IC like a PS232S or F) the same as a single rail unit without OCP/OVP/UVP @ +12V (with a protection IC like the Weltrend WT7502 or 7510)??
    Well I don't...
    I think it's fair to deduct some points for those cheap protection ICs...

    And you guys have read the review of the Enermax Triathlor Eco 650W and Lepa Maxbron 700W? And you have read the overload part?
    about 80 Amps @ +12V wihle falling under 10V before shutting down and 6V with 100Amps @ +12V with the Maxbron...
    Test for and mark off for the things you've mentioned. But just to make it, "It's a single rail so it by default is bad." isn't reallt an objective way to review.

    Sorry for the OT, but while I'm thinking of it, I don't like auto deductions simply because a PSU isn't fully modular either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Payne View Post
    Because you like to save a buck or two?
    Is this a language barrier or something? I'm saving someone a buck or two? I don't understand. Because we don't deduct a point for single +12V rail vs. multiple +12V rail JonnyGURU.com is saving a buck or two?!? Dude.... Or are you talking about Corsair? I'm not Corsair. Corsair's not a person and I just work for them, so that can't be it. So maybe you should use more proper nouns and less pronouns.

    But like Phaedrus said, the cost difference is actually really minimal.
    Last edited by Jon Gerow; 05-26-2014 at 05:17 AM.

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    Yeah, it's like $0.20 more for the controller and about $0.10 per sense resistor (one for each rail). On the high end. Maybe less in mass production. I mean, that type of difference matters on things like your Corsair CX and CM Elite v2 and such where you have low ASP and slim (or negative...) margins. But on a 1000W PSU? That's peanuts, considering the potential liability.


    The reason for single rail is almost entirely marketing to a public that doesn't know what it means.

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    I do prefer multi-rail over single rail PSUs (one other reason I like my Delta monsters - one is a quad-rail, the other is a 5-rail). However, I don't think it's a serious enough problem to knock points off in a review for. I know it happens, but I've been fortunate enough not to have seen a board burn up from a VRM failure before.
    No wonder it doesn't work! You installed the coils backwards

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    Quote Originally Posted by CM Phaedrus View Post
    Yeah, it's like $0.20 more for the controller and about $0.10 per sense resistor (one for each rail). On the high end. Maybe less in mass production. I mean, that type of difference matters on things like your Corsair CX and CM Elite v2 and such where you have low ASP and slim (or negative...) margins. But on a 1000W PSU? That's peanuts, considering the potential liability.


    The reason for single rail is almost entirely marketing to a public that doesn't know what it means.
    Why don't you do Multi Rail PSUs for the EU market??

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