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Thread: PCGH will deduct points for single +12V rail PSUs. Thoughts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonnyGURU View Post
    Which is why the OCP/OPP should be tested, sure. But you can't just assume "no OCP..... bad." In MOST cases, when OPP is used in lieu of OCP, it DOES work.
    Maybe, but that doesn't change the fact that OVP/UVP is not presend. And that's also pretty important.
    OCP comes with OVP/UVP on those chips, if you implement one, you usually do both...

    Quote Originally Posted by jonnyGURU View Post
    Unfortunately, in addition to ignorant Anglo-Saxons that can't properly set up multiple +12V rails (), a lot of companies are going to stick with single +12V rail PSUs just to cater to the lowest common denominator user that doesn't know to look at the PSU's combined +12V rail rating when their GPU box says "you need a PSU with 50A on the +12V rail."
    Yes, because it's cheaper. They save some bucks on manufacturing costs and they don't need a smart person who has to think about the rail splitting.

    And isn't that the reason we have single rail now?! Because somebody wasn't smart enough for Multi Rail?
    And why not use that for marketing:
    One Rail -> the lazy mans way
    more rails -> the smart way

    Quote Originally Posted by jonnyGURU View Post
    Of course, everyone could just split the +12V rails up and not put it on the label like some Seasonic units
    Better than actual true Single Rail units. Especially those with those cheapish 8pin protection ICs like Weltrend WT7502 or 7510...

    Quote Originally Posted by jonnyGURU View Post
    Besides, when those products go out for review and they find the discrepancy and point it out, there's actually a backlash because, you know, some people still actually believe that single +12V rail is better for overclocking, system stability, their dogs digestive health, etc. and will be more angry than if you just straight up told them there's multiple +12V rails.
    And that's a reason? Because there are some people who don't have a clue about PSUs but test them? Because there is some FUD out there??
    And just because people think something is better that should justify to do a worse product than it could have been?

    I think you know as well that Single Rail isn't a good idea, especially for those 1200W units.

    And the interesting part: You can buy more 'low endish' Multi Rail units than actual high end units.

    I really don't understand your reasoning, Jonny. Especially since you didn't say a word about UVP/OVP. And yes, Corsair seems to like those chips without OCP/OVP and UVP on +12V...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Payne View Post
    Yes, because it's cheaper. They save some bucks on manufacturing costs and they don't need a smart person who has to think about the rail splitting.
    It's cheaper... perhaps. I can find out by how much. But if it works, it works. I can buy a $10 burger at Red Robin and be just as happy is I would if I had a $30 burger at some posh club in Vegas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Payne View Post

    And that's a reason? Because there are some people who don't have a clue about PSUs but test them?
    Wow. Single +12V rails really piss you off.

    Replace "some" with "most". MOST people don't have a clue. If you look at these things in a small sampling, like those who read reviews, those who post on forums, etc. you can easily say that very few people don't know the difference, and those who don't can easily have their mind changed. Fact of the matter is, those who read reviews, forums, etc. is actually a very small percentage of the customer base. I guarantee you that the bulk of people that walk into a retail store to buy a PSU know or care about +12V rail.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Payne View Post
    I think you know as well that Single Rail isn't a good idea, especially for those 1200W units.
    For a 550W, that's a waste of money. But for a 1200W? Sure. But again, Average Joe isn't too bright. Ironically, it's Average Joe that is likely to need the OCP more than anyone else. The only time, in the field, that I've EVER seen a lack of OCP cause a problem is when someone tries to get too clever with wire management. The pinch a wire, it shorts and all of the insulation melts off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Payne View Post
    And the interesting part: You can buy more 'low endish' Multi Rail units than actual high end units.
    That's because a lot of lower end units are pretty much off the factory shelf products. I know that goes against the "single +12V rail is cheaper is why" argument, which is flawed in itself, if someone like Corsair, Cooler Master, Enermax, etc. feels that they're targeting a "single +12V rail customer", they'll have that change made. The customers of retail product like Corsair, Cooler Master, Enermax, etc. are usually GPU upgrade, SLI, etc. type builders. The person that buys the $20 PSU with two +12V rails at 18A each is replacing the PSU in his Lenovo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Payne View Post
    I really don't understand your reasoning, Jonny. Especially since you didn't say a word about UVP/OVP. And yes, Corsair seems to like those chips without OCP/OVP and UVP on +12V...
    Because we're not talking about Corsair.... and we're not talking about OVP and UVP. And those ICs you mentioned do support OVP and UVP. We're talking about OCP right now. Stay on topic.

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    There are some ICs which do not support UVP for +12V.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philipus II View Post
    There are some ICs which do not support UVP for +12V.
    Yes. There are some.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonnyGURU View Post
    It's cheaper... perhaps. I can find out by how much. But if it works, it works.
    It would even work if you got rid of the Protection IC. Or like in the Revo X't 730W review, you'd be good without any protection. As long as nothing goes wrong of course..

    Quote Originally Posted by jonnyGURU View Post
    Replace "some" with "most". MOST people don't have a clue.
    Yes and they absolutely do not care about Single Rail or Multi Rail...

    Quote Originally Posted by jonnyGURU View Post
    If you look at these things in a small sampling, like those who read reviews, those who post on forums, etc. you can easily say that very few people don't know the difference, and those who don't can easily have their mind changed.
    When you can change their minds, why don't you do it? Because you like to save a buck or two? Wasn't there a story about general motors with problems with the ignition or something like that.
    Buttom line: It would cost about 1$ more but would be safer/save lives. And they didn't care...


    Quote Originally Posted by jonnyGURU View Post
    For a 550W, that's a waste of money. But for a 1200W? Sure. But again, Average Joe isn't too bright. Ironically, it's Average Joe that is likely to need the OCP more than anyone else.
    Yeah and thats the problem. Why not tell them thy need OCP. Why not implemnt it so that there can't be any damage to the PSU. You also know those PCIe Y-Cables with only an 8pin connector in the PSU. Why not protect them with an OCP so that the connector does not burn when using it with a dual GPU graphics card?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonnyGURU View Post
    The only time, in the field, that I've EVER seen a lack of OCP cause a problem is when someone tries to get too clever with wire management. The pinch a wire, it shorts and all of the insulation melts off.
    You mean like using some cables that did not come with the PSU?
    That's a rather common problem. And you have to piss the one using those cables really off sometipes before he admits it...

    Still: Why use a PSU without multiple OCP on the +12V? Is saving a buck or two really that important? Is it worth to sacrifice safety? The same goes for OTP. There are only a few budget units with OTP...


    Quote Originally Posted by jonnyGURU View Post
    That's because a lot of lower end units are pretty much off the factory shelf products.
    ...and they are used in many OEM computers...
    So why not do the same for the High End units if someone wants Multi Rail he has no choice but to buy either an Antec or a be quiet product...

    Quote Originally Posted by jonnyGURU View Post
    I know that goes against the "single +12V rail is cheaper is why" argument, which is flawed in itself, if someone like Corsair, Cooler Master, Enermax, etc. feels that they're targeting a "single +12V rail customer", they'll have that change made.
    And what about the 'Multi Rail Customers'? They don't really have something to choose from as there are just a few Multi Rail PSUs out there...

    And you can do Multi Rail really well if you know how to do it...

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonnyGURU View Post
    The only time, in the field, that I've EVER seen a lack of OCP cause a problem is when someone tries to get too clever with wire management. The pinch a wire, it shorts and all of the insulation melts off.
    For the record: http://www.overclock.net/t/943852/computer-caught-fire

    Motherboard VRM fails, single rail PSU pumps a hundred amps through the shorted fet, sets the motherboard on fire. The PSU is always one of the first components blamed.

    I've seen this 3-4 times confirmed, another 2-3 maybes. Not a huge number of cases, but when it happens it means hundreds of dollars worth of damage, if not thousands, plus bad publicity for the PSU vendor.

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    I've seen this 3-4 times confirmed, another 2-3 maybes.
    yeah, and every year at least that many commit suicide jumping off Niagara Falls.

    Should every high view in the world be walled off by 12 ft safety glass?

    Nanny safety state just going way too far.

    Guess what people? It is one reason the advantage is swinging to the Chinese.

    While I agree that their health and safety obviously needs improving...the pendulum in the developed west has gone too far.

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    What's the problem? We all agree that a good implemented multi-rail is better then a single rail PSU with more then 100A at the 12V, don't we? So what's the problem that Philip is gonna deduct points in his reviews for a single rail PSU with 100A?

    I don't see a real problem in that, I even think its a good thing because of what I explained here above.

    But of course you could also still give the PSU a 10 out of 10, even if it doesn't have UVP, OVP, OTP and a ripple that goes to 150mV at full load, but is below 50mV at 90% load. Because almost no one loads the PSU at more then 90% and if someone does 150mV isn't gonna kill anything probably. And if the OPP shutdown the PSU at 101% load, nothing bad probably going to happen. And who needs UVP, OVP and OTP anyway, it has OPP.

    But I think it still is a good reason to deduct points even if it doesn't cause any problems at all. Imo you could say the same for multi-rail vs single-rail. Most of the time single rail isn't gonna be a problem, but that doesn't make it the best solution. So Philip has a valid point to deduct some points if you ask me.

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    Trying to apply "nanny state" arguments to a company wanting to provide additional protections for its customers? For trying to protect itself from liability? Considering the BOM cost of adding multi-rail OCP is nickels and dimes...

    The only thing standing in the way of adding multi-rail OCP to all PSUs over 1000W is lack of customer knowledge, and the fact that so many companies rely on single rail as a marketing crutch when there's nothing else special about their PSU to advertise.

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    I wonder how many reviews would/do deduct points for a PSU being multi +12V rail.

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