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Thread: PCGH will deduct points for single +12V rail PSUs. Thoughts?

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    Default PCGH will deduct points for single +12V rail PSUs. Thoughts?


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    They can have whatever rating system they want.

    I just think it's nonsense and won't pay attention to it. And will say so to anyone who will ask about it.
    Last edited by rafal_iB_PL; 05-25-2014 at 04:35 AM.

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    Dumb.

    It's just demonstrating personal bias.

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    Please wait until it's finished. We're not done yet.

    Be aware: German users are some sort of crazy about safety. We panic, we're scred and we buy insurance contracts for every risk we can think of. Safety is far more important for German user than for the market in most countries. PCGH is a German print magazine and has to adapt to the needs of the local readers.

    The commentary is by Marco Albert, but of course we agreed on the facts before. There might be some facsts lost in translation and some parts aren't official yet, so a short summary of what I'm going to do:
    - badly designed multi rail is crap. We will definately score heavily against multi rail psus which can't deliver full power to real systems (for example: 50%/150 watts of the total power is reserved for the cpu). We will score against high power psus which can't supply a AMD 295X2 because enthusiasts want to power this card even if its not exactly in PCIe specs.
    - we don't know of any house fire caused by single rail
    - there are very few fires caused by PCs in general and even less caused by the psu. Remove the fires caused by really bad psus and you're already very close to zero.
    - single rail is perfectly fine for low power psus
    - the safety advantage of high power multi rail exists, but it's small
    - it grows with the maximum power and the higher OPP limit.
    - before getting a multi rail psu for safety reasons check your power grid, extension cords and power strips. These are the really likely things to cause fire.

    PCGH got bad feedback recently because they recommended a single rail psu. We had to justify the decisions. Hardwareluxx (other german site) recently had a Lepa MaxBron unit which didn't shut down at +12-Volt-overload at all. The psu continued to work with around 6V output at +12V. We all agree on that that shouldn't happen.

    I'm currently working on testing all protections with the Chroma 8000 system. Testing OVP, UVP, SCP, OCP and OPP really helps with judging the psu.We're are not getting the programming done for the premiere in the 08/2014 but most likely for the following tests. I've got the German contractor of Chroma (PCE Powercontrol) to assist me.. For the first review for the 08/2014 I don't have the triggers per rail yet, but later I will.

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    There are three stages of Single Rail:
    Single Rail with OCP/OVP/UVP and a reasonable maximum Current. @+12V
    Single Rail with OCP/OVP/UVP and an unreasonable maximum current (ie about 750W and more) @+12V
    Single Rail without OCP/OVP/UVP @+12V

    And there is Multi rail.

    As you may know (or not): Multi rail is the most expansive variant of those, while single rail without +12V protection is the cheapest...

    You think it's fair to rate a Multi Rail unit with a reasonable OCP/OVP/UVP and OTP (with a protection IC like a PS232S or F) the same as a single rail unit without OCP/OVP/UVP @ +12V (with a protection IC like the Weltrend WT7502 or 7510)??
    Well I don't...
    I think it's fair to deduct some points for those cheap protection ICs...

    And you guys have read the review of the Enermax Triathlor Eco 650W and Lepa Maxbron 700W? And you have read the overload part?
    about 80 Amps @ +12V wihle falling under 10V before shutting down and 6V with 100Amps @ +12V with the Maxbron...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Payne View Post
    You think it's fair to rate a Multi Rail unit with a reasonable OCP/OVP/UVP and OTP (with a protection IC like a PS232S or F) the same as a single rail unit without OCP/OVP/UVP @ +12V (with a protection IC like the Weltrend WT7502 or 7510)??
    Well I don't...
    I think it's fair to deduct some points for those cheap protection ICs...

    And you guys have read the review of the Enermax Triathlor Eco 650W and Lepa Maxbron 700W? And you have read the overload part?
    about 80 Amps @ +12V wihle falling under 10V before shutting down and 6V with 100Amps @ +12V with the Maxbron...
    Which is why the OCP/OPP should be tested, sure. But you can't just assume "no OCP..... bad." In MOST cases, when OPP is used in lieu of OCP, it DOES work.

    Unfortunately, in addition to ignorant Anglo-Saxons that can't properly set up multiple +12V rails (), a lot of companies are going to stick with single +12V rail PSUs just to cater to the lowest common denominator user that doesn't know to look at the PSU's combined +12V rail rating when their GPU box says "you need a PSU with 50A on the +12V rail."

    Of course, everyone could just split the +12V rails up and not put it on the label like some Seasonic units, but I've heard that certain safety certs don't like the discrepancy between the label and actual (they don't seem to mind when a 300W is labeled as a 600W though! Right?). Besides, when those products go out for review and they find the discrepancy and point it out, there's actually a backlash because, you know, some people still actually believe that single +12V rail is better for overclocking, system stability, their dogs digestive health, etc. and will be more angry than if you just straight up told them there's multiple +12V rails.

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    well, the latest fall protection standard in the US is now 4 feet.
    If you are working at a height above that, you are supposed to have fall protection ...full body harness suspension capability.

    Not two stories (20-16 feet), not one story (10-8 feet) but 4 feet off the ground.

    When is enough enough?

    Safety is great...but has anyone in GERMANY done a cost benefit study?
    How many homes burned down from single rail PSU? How many people over the last, oh say 20 years, were injured from single rail PSU?

    IDK...is there a real need? or are we again chasing diminishing returns?

    PS.

    I guess no one at OSHA thinks about the irony...whenever I am standing...my head is 4 foot off the ground...so I should really be wearing fall protection 24/7/365.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mdk777 View Post
    well, the latest fall protection standard in the US is now 4 feet.
    If you are working at a height above that, you are supposed to have fall protection ...full body harness suspension capability.

    Not two stories (20-16 feet), not one story (10-8 feet) but 4 feet off the ground.

    When is enough enough?

    Safety is great...but has anyone in GERMANY done a cost benefit study?
    How many homes burned down from single rail PSU? How many people over the last, oh say 20 years, were injured from single rail PSU?

    IDK...is there a real need? or are we again chasing diminishing returns?

    PS.

    I guess no one at OSHA thinks about the irony...whenever I am standing...my head is 4 foot off the ground...so I should really be wearing fall protection 24/7/365.
    It's the germans. Do something wrong and you will end in ze kuhler

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonnyGURU View Post
    Which is why the OCP/OPP should be tested, sure. But you can't just assume "no OCP..... bad." In MOST cases, when OPP is used in lieu of OCP, it DOES work.
    Maybe, but that doesn't change the fact that OVP/UVP is not presend. And that's also pretty important.
    OCP comes with OVP/UVP on those chips, if you implement one, you usually do both...

    Quote Originally Posted by jonnyGURU View Post
    Unfortunately, in addition to ignorant Anglo-Saxons that can't properly set up multiple +12V rails (), a lot of companies are going to stick with single +12V rail PSUs just to cater to the lowest common denominator user that doesn't know to look at the PSU's combined +12V rail rating when their GPU box says "you need a PSU with 50A on the +12V rail."
    Yes, because it's cheaper. They save some bucks on manufacturing costs and they don't need a smart person who has to think about the rail splitting.

    And isn't that the reason we have single rail now?! Because somebody wasn't smart enough for Multi Rail?
    And why not use that for marketing:
    One Rail -> the lazy mans way
    more rails -> the smart way

    Quote Originally Posted by jonnyGURU View Post
    Of course, everyone could just split the +12V rails up and not put it on the label like some Seasonic units
    Better than actual true Single Rail units. Especially those with those cheapish 8pin protection ICs like Weltrend WT7502 or 7510...

    Quote Originally Posted by jonnyGURU View Post
    Besides, when those products go out for review and they find the discrepancy and point it out, there's actually a backlash because, you know, some people still actually believe that single +12V rail is better for overclocking, system stability, their dogs digestive health, etc. and will be more angry than if you just straight up told them there's multiple +12V rails.
    And that's a reason? Because there are some people who don't have a clue about PSUs but test them? Because there is some FUD out there??
    And just because people think something is better that should justify to do a worse product than it could have been?

    I think you know as well that Single Rail isn't a good idea, especially for those 1200W units.

    And the interesting part: You can buy more 'low endish' Multi Rail units than actual high end units.

    I really don't understand your reasoning, Jonny. Especially since you didn't say a word about UVP/OVP. And yes, Corsair seems to like those chips without OCP/OVP and UVP on +12V...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Payne View Post
    Yes, because it's cheaper. They save some bucks on manufacturing costs and they don't need a smart person who has to think about the rail splitting.
    It's cheaper... perhaps. I can find out by how much. But if it works, it works. I can buy a $10 burger at Red Robin and be just as happy is I would if I had a $30 burger at some posh club in Vegas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Payne View Post

    And that's a reason? Because there are some people who don't have a clue about PSUs but test them?
    Wow. Single +12V rails really piss you off.

    Replace "some" with "most". MOST people don't have a clue. If you look at these things in a small sampling, like those who read reviews, those who post on forums, etc. you can easily say that very few people don't know the difference, and those who don't can easily have their mind changed. Fact of the matter is, those who read reviews, forums, etc. is actually a very small percentage of the customer base. I guarantee you that the bulk of people that walk into a retail store to buy a PSU know or care about +12V rail.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Payne View Post
    I think you know as well that Single Rail isn't a good idea, especially for those 1200W units.
    For a 550W, that's a waste of money. But for a 1200W? Sure. But again, Average Joe isn't too bright. Ironically, it's Average Joe that is likely to need the OCP more than anyone else. The only time, in the field, that I've EVER seen a lack of OCP cause a problem is when someone tries to get too clever with wire management. The pinch a wire, it shorts and all of the insulation melts off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Payne View Post
    And the interesting part: You can buy more 'low endish' Multi Rail units than actual high end units.
    That's because a lot of lower end units are pretty much off the factory shelf products. I know that goes against the "single +12V rail is cheaper is why" argument, which is flawed in itself, if someone like Corsair, Cooler Master, Enermax, etc. feels that they're targeting a "single +12V rail customer", they'll have that change made. The customers of retail product like Corsair, Cooler Master, Enermax, etc. are usually GPU upgrade, SLI, etc. type builders. The person that buys the $20 PSU with two +12V rails at 18A each is replacing the PSU in his Lenovo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Payne View Post
    I really don't understand your reasoning, Jonny. Especially since you didn't say a word about UVP/OVP. And yes, Corsair seems to like those chips without OCP/OVP and UVP on +12V...
    Because we're not talking about Corsair.... and we're not talking about OVP and UVP. And those ICs you mentioned do support OVP and UVP. We're talking about OCP right now. Stay on topic.

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