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-   -   Seasonic Prime 850W Review (http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13643)

Oklahoma Wolf 09-19-2016 09:03 AM

Seasonic Prime 850W Review
 
Quote:

A lot of people were impatient with Seasonic back when the Prime series of units were announced. They wondered when these units were ever going to hit the market, and why they were so content with EVGA and Super Flower getting the jump on them in the marketplace. When I reviewed the 750W model, it became apparent that Seasonic just wanted to make sure they got the job done right. Now, I have the 850W model on the load testers. Let's see if it measures up to some really lofty expectations.
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php...Story&reid=487

sith'ari 09-19-2016 09:17 AM

I still can't believe that these ripple values are produced without even the need for caps to be put inside the cables!!
Simply amazing job from Seasonic!! :eek:

Smirnoff 09-19-2016 09:55 AM

Those Seasonic guys are such showoffs. :p Good job on that unit. I knew it was gonna be good, but that voltage regulation is out of this world awesome.

Cyrix 09-19-2016 11:38 AM

Absolutely amazing stuff from Seasonic, Superflower must be nervous now with such a good unit like this competing.
My favorite thing of all is the tight voltage regulation,all Japanese caps,and barely no wires being used inside the PSU.

Has Seasonic mentioned if there will be lower wattage units like this 650w? 550w? or maybe even higher like 950w? 1000+w?

-The_Mask- 09-19-2016 11:55 AM

600W fanless.

Higher wattages will probably come later and won't use the exact same platform, this platform is only from 650W till 850W. But that's normal, platforms almost always scale 200/300W and above that a different platform is used.

The_Assimilator 09-19-2016 12:42 PM

Sweet mother of... That PSU was laughing at you while you tested it, Wolfy. Laughing heartily all the way through.

This is fantastic work from Seasonic. It blows everything else out of the water. And it isn't even using digital control! I shudder to think what numbers a digital Seasonic PSU would turn in...

PureBlackFire 09-19-2016 01:09 PM

impressive as expected. I prefer not to have ribbon style cables on premium psus, but I'd use custom sleeves anyway.

C'DaleRider 09-19-2016 04:39 PM

Damned fine power supply...almost makes me want to go out and buy one to replace my Antec HCP-750 Plat.....almost.

BTRY B 529th FA BN 09-19-2016 05:08 PM

Very sexy, PSU, WOW!!

Eclipse 09-20-2016 05:00 AM

That's a really pretty PSU! I have just bought mine (850W)... But what I have noticed something weird:

Quote:

As with the 750W model, you push that button in the middle if you want the fan on all the time.
On my PSU I need to push the button if I should want turn the hybrid mode on, so the exact opposite way.

My unit:

Pushed: hybrid mode on
Not pushed: hybrid mode off

Review unit:

Pushed: hybrid mode off
Not pushed: hybrid mode on

Is my unit the intended way or did I just got one of these "faulty"-Units described in the 750W thread?

I'm just a bit confused ;)

MetalZeroNine 09-20-2016 08:30 AM

In the scale of Hercules to Delta Electronics - how much better is the Prime compared to the SS-660XP2? (that I got for $146)

Also I noticed that Seasonic stopped using velvet bag for the cables - which is nice for them

ehume 09-20-2016 08:58 AM

I always thought the velvet bags were for storing the PSU's. The Seasonic cables come in two-part plastic sacks with snappable plastic flaps.

@OW: really good writeup. Nice and clear. Makes me wonder if any of my earlier PSU's are old enough to warrant replacing with this.

@Seasonic Rep: the one thing I wish you included was a PSU turn-on socket. Your support page suggests we test the PSU first by grounding the Power-Good line. But female 24-hole ATX sockets for motherboards are available with the Power-Good and Ground positions pre-connected. I have this adapter -- I bought one from a shop. But a PSU maker includes them routinely. I'll bet one intercepted return would pay for including them routinely.

But the PSU itself is awesome. I await Prime Platinum and Gold with interest.

Q -- is the fanless Prime based on the 850 watt model?

MetalZeroNine 09-20-2016 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ehume (Post 130191)
I always thought the velvet bags were for storing the PSU's. The Seasonic cables come in two-part plastic sacks with snappable plastic flaps.

Seasonic used to have velvet bags for cable on X-series and 1st gen Platinums AFAIK

Journeyman 09-20-2016 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetalZeroNine (Post 130201)
Seasonic used to have velvet bags for cable on X-series and 1st gen Platinums AFAIK

No, they were synthetic double bags. Click. :)

ITelektro 09-21-2016 03:25 AM

Quote:

Yes, there are some random spikes in these shots. Don't worry about them... they don't matter at the amplitudes seen here. They just do not matter. I see one at 8mV, one at 9mV. That's nothing. Nothing.
Ok, you think that spikes are not important. Ripple is measured by p-p within 20MHz including each spike. We can not ignore spikes because we think are not important.

I tested this power supply for the one web portal in Croatia. Plenty complaints went to the quality of the fan. Double lower life expectancy than the rest of the device. What is your opinion?
Thank you for your answers.

On my copy I found a couple of really badly soldered points. According to the experience would say that someone manually soldered. I'm glad to see that it was only in my copy. In the copy which is jonny test, soldering is flawless.

Seasonic deserves compliments for this unit.

Journeyman 09-21-2016 04:58 AM

@ Seasonic Rep
Your engeeniers should improve the voltage regulation/the efficiency on the +5VSB rail. 78-81% is kinda weak. Come on, drop a gem on 'em - it's your Prime Series ;)

Found this review (translate) of all three Prime models. None of them stayed within/under the 0,5 range of load regulation on all rails. :(

none77 09-21-2016 06:00 AM

Look before at aris respond, they measured the diff from nominal (that what atx demands).
If you will check the load regulation from the start voltage it will be under 0.5%, that what this site measures.

ITelektro 09-21-2016 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Journeyman (Post 130222)
@ Seasonic Rep
Your engeeniers should improve the voltage regulation/the efficiency on the +5VSB rail. 78-81% is kinda weak. Come on, drop a gem on 'em - it's your Prime Series ;)



In practice this means that .....
15W at 80% efficiency will cause the loss of 3w. If Seasonic increase efficiency to 90% then the losses will be reduced by 1.5W ....yes whole 1,5w.

Quote:

Found this review (translate) of all three Prime models. None of them stayed within/under the 0,5 range of load regulation on all rails. :(
So far there quite a few reviews of this PSU, and the results are within 0.5%. This review stands out.

Oklahoma Wolf 09-21-2016 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ITelektro (Post 130220)
Ok, you think that spikes are not important.

No, I think those spikes are not important.

As for the fan and soldering, I can't really score units I don't have.

Journeyman 09-22-2016 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Journeyman (Post 130222)
Found this review (translate) of all three Prime models. None of them stayed within/under the 0,5 range of load regulation on all rails.

Hee hee, already removed (cowards). :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by ITelektro (Post 130225)
In practice this means that .....
15W at 80% efficiency will cause the loss of 3w. If Seasonic increase efficiency to 90% then the losses will be reduced by 1.5W ....yes whole 1,5w.

I can understand your irony, but hell yeah... Every watt counts :p

Orion 09-22-2016 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Journeyman (Post 130292)
Hee hee, already removed (cowards). :D

Huh. Why'd they do that?

ITelektro 09-23-2016 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oklahoma Wolf (Post 130229)
No, I think those spikes are not important.

Oh, yes, those
Do not understand me wrong, I completely agree. Probably this is a random spikes of high frequency which does not generated in the power supply. The higher the frequency, the less important. But, each spike within 20Mhz must be include, no matter what we think.

Quote:

As for the fan and soldering, I can't really score units I don't have.
I think all Primes 850w have the same fans.

And finally, the idea of scoring a turn-on analysis. Not quite true that this result meets Intel's requirements or that is within specification.

There must be a smooth and continuous ramp of each DC output voltage from 10% to 90% of its final set point within the regulation band, while loaded as specified.

IMO, also think that it should be just pass / fail evaluation. But if you want to introduce a rating you should analyze in sections and give an average rating for the turn-on time, rise time, overshoot, wave form.
A lot of work, it may be better to spend time at hold-up time and / or inrush current.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Journeyman (Post 130292)
Hee hee, already removed (cowards). :D

:D
Quote:

I can understand your irony, but hell yeah... Every watt counts :p
In this case, literally:D

Oklahoma Wolf 09-23-2016 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ITelektro (Post 130329)
There must be a smooth and continuous ramp of each DC output voltage from 10% to 90% of its final set point within the regulation band, while loaded as specified.

The wording is vague on that point, so a lot of OEMs likely get to a certain result, say it's good enough that it could be considered smooth and continuous, and let it go at that.

If I start scoring on those tests, this is exactly where I would want to do it. If, that is, I can think of a good way to get it into the point deductions.

ITelektro 09-23-2016 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oklahoma Wolf (Post 130351)
The wording is vague on that point, so a lot of OEMs likely get to a certain result, say it's good enough that it could be considered smooth and continuous, and let it go at that.

I did not quoted the whole text, below is exactly define vague part.
There must be a smooth and continuous ramp of each DC output voltage from 10% to 90% of its final set point within the regulation band, while loaded as specified. The smooth turn-on requires that, during the 10% to 90% portion of the rise time, the slope of the turn-on waveform must be positive and have a value of between 0 V/ms and [Vout, nominal / 0.1] V/ms. Also, for any 5 ms segment of the 10% to 90% rise time waveform, a straight line drawn between the end points of the waveform segment must have a slope ≥[Vout, nominal / 20] V/ms.

Although on the modern oscilloscopes this is relatively easy to do that, but it is lot of work.

According to this, your test sample does not meet Intel specification!?
On my sample results were considerably better, not perfect, but better.

Seasonic Rep 09-24-2016 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ehume (Post 130191)

@Seasonic Rep: the one thing I wish you included was a PSU turn-on socket. Your support page suggests we test the PSU first by grounding the Power-Good line. But female 24-hole ATX sockets for motherboards are available with the Power-Good and Ground positions pre-connected. I have this adapter -- I bought one from a shop. But a PSU maker includes them routinely. I'll bet one intercepted return would pay for including them routinely.

Hi Ehume,

Thank you for the input, yes, it does seem to be a good idea. I will pass this to our PM at HQ and check on the feasibility.

Seasonic Rep 09-24-2016 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ITelektro (Post 130220)
I tested this power supply for the one web portal in Croatia. Plenty complaints went to the quality of the fan. Double lower life expectancy than the rest of the device. What is your opinion?
Thank you for your answers.

On my copy I found a couple of really badly soldered points. According to the experience would say that someone manually soldered. I'm glad to see that it was only in my copy. In the copy which is jonny test, soldering is flawless.

Hi ITelektro,

Can you please provide the following information so we can follow up and improve the quality of our products.
> PRIME Model Number
> Serial Number
> For which Croatian portal did you make the testing
> Where are your test results posted
> Link to the feedback / complaints about the fan
> Photo of the "really badly soldered joints"

This is very important to us because we want to provide the information to our QA so we can implement change and improvement.

SOLDERING: From time to time, hand soldering is required for either touch up or component change but we try our best to maintain the highest level of workmanship. Please provide a photo so we can document it and make improvements.

FDB FAN: As for the FDB fan, this is one of the better fans we have found so I am a bit surprised when you write... "Plenty complaints went to the quality of the fan."

Also I am not sure if I understand what you mean by Double lower life expectancy.... Considering the fan is the only moving mechanical part in the whole PSU, it will have the lowest component MTBF. What would you recommend as an alternative?

Please kindly reply to the requested information so we can make improvements where applicable.

Thank you.

quest for silence 09-24-2016 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seasonic Rep (Post 130409)
FDB FAN: As for the FDB fan, this is one of the better fans we have found

Just as a side note: that doesn't mean it's enough for such a flagship unit.

It might worth to note that the Seasonic brand kindles the highest expectations (it's one of your marketing goal, isn't it?), so maybe that's a fan which we might expect by someone like Thermaltake, but not exactly by you.

In this respect I agree with those (the russian review now disappeared? I don't recall, atm) who wrote that the previous Sanyo Denki SanAces (or even the Protechnic MGA13512XF-025 you mounted on the XP-based CM Vanguard series) were probably more in line with the Seasonic status and track, than the current Hongh Hua one (too often seen, even on cheaper PSUs).

ITelektro 09-24-2016 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seasonic Rep (Post 130409)
Hi ITelektro,
Can you please provide the following information so we can follow up and improve the quality of our products.

I appreciate your approach.
Quote:

PRIME Model Number
; SSR-850TD (Prime 850 Titanium)
Quote:

S/N
:R1606TA106460003
Quote:

For which Croatian portal did you make the testing
www.pcekspert.com
Quote:

Where are your test results posted
http://www.pcekspert.com/clanak/seas...titanium-test/
Photos are available on my website. These are out our selection images, there are more, I will gladly share them if these are not enough.
Quote:

Link to the feedback / complaints about the fan
Complaints about the fan are not by me, I'm not sure how much are justified. Therefore, I ask for an opinion.
These are reactions to the test, used google translate;
http://forum.pcekspert.com/showthread.php?t=280892
Recommendation was SanAce.
Photo of the "really badly soldered joints"
http://www.itelektronika.com/blog-se...owall=&start=8
As I wrote, I think it will not be a problem. In all the available tests soldering is excellent. My copy is the exception. I understand that sometimes it is necessary to hand soldering but clean the flux residues and optical check the connection.
My opinion;
This is the best power supply according performance that has been with me on my workbench. Price of the Prime is quite high in Cro (about 350USD) so I do not hide that I'm looking for the tiniest faults and asking for the opinion of others in order to be as objective as possible.
I like criticism, and if I made a mistake somewhere, I expect criticism with gratitude.
Sorry for my bad English

Seasonic Rep 09-24-2016 08:45 AM

quest for silence,

The RU review is... under review because we are checking test parameters.

SanyoDenki does not make a 13 or 13.5 or 14cm fans with 25mm high frame, not that we know of anyway... If we continue with the 12cm, we might not hear the end of it... As well, the SD fans are optimized for reliability and life time and not necessarily noise. This is similar for Papst or Nidec or Panaflo/NMB... all great fans but not necessarily optimized for low noise. From the production side, we also have to consider lead time, delivery, etc. but noise and reliability are our major concerns.

I will ask our PM about the Protechnic, but he did tell me that the Hong Hua is an excellent FDB fan and seeing it in lessor PSUs does not make it a lessor fan.

quest for silence 09-24-2016 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seasonic Rep (Post 130419)
the SD fans are optimized for reliability and life time and not necessarily noise. This is similar for Papst or Nidec or Panaflo/NMB... all great fans but not necessarily optimized for low noise. From the production side, we also have to consider lead time, delivery, etc. but noise and reliability are our major concerns.

I'm pretty sure there are supply chain related reasons behind the Hong Hua choice, but from my point of view there are too many well appreciated fans in the market to plainly accept a plain vanillla HH (and not an individually balanced SanAce) on your Prime Titanium.

And, about noise, IIRC you implemented the same HH "real" FDB onto the Antec Edge units, and the general consensus is that it was a badly sounding unit.

As far as I understand, optimized for low noise mostly means "not a ball bearing, please": as a matter of fact, even the expensive Be Quiet Silent Wings 3 (like the BQ SIW3-13525-HF) or Noctua iPPC (like the A14) can be noisy (they are rated up to 2.1/3k rpm, Aris recorded the first up to 47dB IIRC), but I won't call them as noisy when properly operated, neither unreliable. But I guess you already know that far better than me.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Seasonic Rep (Post 130419)
I will ask our PM about the Protechnic, but he did tell me that the Hong Hua is an excellent FDB fan and seeing it in lessor PSUs does not make it a lessor fan.

If I recall correctly what Phaedrus wrote when he worked for CM, that Protechnic should sport the latest Matsushita FDB gen. 2 bearing: in case, it could be a viable candidate for any high end PSU.

But above all, with all the due respect, sir, your one looks like sort of a moot point.

The more (money) you ask, the more demanding the people are: said differently, what if there were non japanese electrolytic caps inside a Prime Titanium? Deep down lots of experts here wrote how good some Samxon, Teapo, Capxon (!), Taicon (!!), Ltec (!!!), Elite (!!!!), JunFu (!!!!!) series may be, and lots of good engineers (think to Delta's ones) somehow agree with them using those caps.

What's the point of a flagship Prime Titanium over a high end units like Corsair RMx or EVGA P2? Up to twice the price for what? It should give us some tidbits, not just some tiny bits of more performance, I guess.

When more than fifteen years ago the Jaguar S-type sedan come out lots of people complained about the cheap Ford small parts in it... what's with Jaguar now? Look at how much the Prime Titanium costs (outside USA, of course)...

Seasonic Rep 09-24-2016 02:53 PM

ITelektro,

Thank you for the clarification. We welcome all comments and these will be forwarded to our QA and PM for consideration.

>> Solder, Yes, that particular single joint was manually touched up and yes, it is not very pretty but nevertheless, the joint is a strong one, the shape of the solder is good and it does not exhibit any signs of cold solder. There are some melted flux and slightly scrapped top cover to expose the copper pad where the tip of the solder iron touched but this does not in any way affect the quality or performance of the power supply as the copper pad is a shared pad. We do not clean off the flux after wave solder or manual soldering because the residual flux does not have any negative affect in this application.

>> Component U4, this component must be placed diagonally.

>> Complaints about HH fan. I briefly skimmed the forum and I see a 2 people (?) complain about the HH FDB. We take many points into consideration when selecting a fan, such performance, delivery, overall production volume, etc. SanyoDenki does not make any 13cm, 13.5 or 14cm fans with 25mm high frame, otherwise it would be seriously considered for the PRIME.

As for price in HR to be high, I am not really sure why but I will forward this to our sales team to review. But in relation to other Titanium units in HR or other EU markets, I am not sure if our prices are above and beyond theirs, performance based comparison of course.

Seasonic Rep 09-24-2016 03:02 PM

quest for silence,

Thank you for your valued opinion. We can go back and forth on this and bring up many analogies but in the end, the PRIME will still use HH and you will still not be happy about it. I am exactly sure what your point is with Jaguar and Ford parts... If the Ford parts can keep the Jags on the road more than in the shops... well, that is a big plus from another perspective. Sometimes it is better to have higher volume production units for greater reliability than more boutique items which may fail faster. Lambos have Audi parts which are glorified VW parts....

Regardless, in the end, we give 10 years warranty and that is a very long time...

ridgid13579 09-24-2016 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seasonic Rep (Post 130436)
quest for silence,

Thank you for your valued opinion. We can go back and forth on this and bring up many analogies but in the end, the PRIME will still use HH and you will still not be happy about it. I am exactly sure what your point is with Jaguar and Ford parts... If the Ford parts can keep the Jags on the road more than in the shops... well, that is a big plus from another perspective. Sometimes it is better to have higher volume production units for greater reliability than more boutique items which may fail faster. Lambos have Audi parts which are glorified VW parts....

Regardless, in the end, we give 10 years warranty and that is a very long time...

Can't we have delta 12k rpm fans to make quest for silence even unhappier?

Delter 09-24-2016 03:12 PM

And i thought Delta HCP was the best to date :)

Just marvelous. I think...i think this is the closest to perfection a unit will ever be.

Unless we reach the point where a PSU can generate more power than it consumes.

Orion 09-24-2016 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delter (Post 130438)
And i thought Delta HCP was the best to date :)

Hardly... why?

Stefan Payne 09-24-2016 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quest for silence (Post 130424)
If I recall correctly what Phaedrus wrote when he worked for CM, that Protechnic should sport the latest Matsushita FDB gen. 2 bearing: in case, it could be a viable candidate for any high end PSU.

I heard that protechnic wants to go the way of Papst and the likes...

So it could be that it's not that easy to obtain smaller quantitys...
Quote:

Originally Posted by quest for silence (Post 130424)
The more (money) you ask, the more demanding the people are: said differently, what if there were non japanese electrolytic caps inside a Prime Titanium? Deep down lots of experts here wrote how good some Samxon, Teapo, Capxon (!), Taicon (!!), Ltec (!!!), Elite (!!!!), JunFu (!!!!!) series may be, and lots of good engineers (think to Delta's ones) somehow agree with them using those caps.

The Problem isn't the origin of the manufacturer...
So something like Teapo TA/TB/TC or ST would be fine, same for Taicon HH, HW, HK and especially HT series...
Or CapXon FH, ZH, KH, maybe GH and GT...
Or Elite EY, maybe EV and PJ or DJ for primary cap, same with ltec LZF and especially LZR...
Still, no filter cap under 10mm diametre should be used...

Nothing wrong with them...
And better than NCC KZE they all are...

But then again, there is the Marketing Bullet Point that doesn't allow this types of excellent capacitors...
And please do not group them by manufacturer, group them by specification/lifetime...

And I prefer a PSU without 'all japanese caps' but instead has OCP on all rails and set useful instead...
What good is a PSU with japanese caps but you can burn the DC-DC module whith overload??

IBruce 09-24-2016 03:46 PM

Thank you Seasonic Rep,

I love my new 850W Titanium Prime.

On my unit, hybrid fan mode ON is rear button in the OUT position. Normal mode is button pushed IN. Then the fan engages and moves to a very slow rotational speed and cannot hear it at 18inches from sitting position. Maybe they wired some of them differently.

Also have the Seasonic Snow Silent 750watt in white, and the Corsair AX 860 (non-i) (a Seasonic OEM part) which I've ran in hybrid mode since November 2012 fan never spins up at all, never one a single issue, rock solid.

Who in their right mind would purchase a Corsair AX860(i) for $199 when you can have THIS amazing Seasonic Prime Titanium 850watt for the same money? Some reviewer was actually comparing the two as if the former was a viable option. The AX860(i) is a 4year old Platinum part and noisy as hell, I had one for two weeks, sounds like a Harrier Jet taking of for a full 36seconds every time you power up and every time you "wake from sleep". What a BS PSU, sent it back for the AX860 Seasonic-Made, and been in love with Seasonic ever since.

http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/...psijawfznc.jpg

http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/...pseq9knryy.jpg

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/m...psquwlhuui.jpg

-The_Mask- 09-24-2016 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delter (Post 130438)
And i thought Delta HCP was the best to date :)

Quality wise the Antec High Current Pro Platinum series is maybe a bit better, but the overal performance isn't as good.

ehume 09-24-2016 05:38 PM

I have to concur with Seasonic Rep on the fans. Those San Aces are sweet. I have the whole "Silent" range as part of my collection of reference fans. I also them in my various Seasonic PSU's. I generally only hear them when I start up my computers, but hear them I do. And as he pointed out, the 25mm fans are only available up to 120mm.

I was pleased when SS switched to 135mm FDB fans. I guess they could have included Noctua fans for that "premium" feel, but even the iPPC line has only a 6-year warranty, and Seasonic's PSU's are warrantied for 10 years.

So I'd say that they are doing as well as they can on the fan front. I don't know if the Protechnica is better than the Hong Hua or not. I have not heard of Protechnica fans rated for operating 10 years.

Bottom line: until we see San Ace fans in 140x25mm with FDB, we're not likely to see much better.

McSteel 09-24-2016 06:08 PM

Twister bearing was also an option...



Nah, just trollin' :p

But I gotta say, Seasonic Rep has really earned his wage this month :)


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