Who's good for hard drives nowadays?

[Silk_the_Absent1]

I never thought I'd say it, but I'm running out of space on my 750GB Caviar Black. I also have a WD3200AAKS that I'm not using right now, that is out of warranty, but still qualifies for a "discounted" (haven't cross-referenced prices vs the WD store rates, so not sure if it makes a difference yet) upgrade, so that's a potential option.

Who's good for hard drives right now? My WD's have been good to me, and this Caviar Black is nicely fast. I like that it has a 5-year warranty, too, as I have had a bit of a history with hard drive failures.

Working on a budget here, so that's something to consider, too. If nothing really springs out as a great deal right now, I'll probably just put the 320GB in, migrate some of my documents over to it, and resize all of my partitions to make things work as a temporary measure until something does come up.

-Adam

[jonnyGURU]

Not Seagate. Bought a new 500GB 7200RPM for one of my computers and it was DOA. Returned it to Seagate and they replaced it with a reman. WHAT?!?! It was DOA!!!! No dice. Worked for almost a year and then died again. Just got another remanufactured 500GB last week.

In another computer, my RAID array was made up of four Seagate 5400RPM 500GB's. Had problems from the start. Found out one of the drives was bad right from the get go. Just chucked it in the trash because I didn't want to deal with Seagate and now I have a three drive RAID array.

At BFG, we used a lot of the WD's. They were always good. At home I have a 1TB Deskstar and that thing has never given me an issue in the 3 years its been in service.

[Oklahoma Wolf]

I'm all about Western Digital these days.

[rafal_iB_PL]

Not Seagate.

Certainly. Especially after seeing this:
http://www.seagate.com/ww/v/index.jsp?locale=en-US&name=void-warranty&vgnextoid=14de3804f3333210VgnVCM1000001a48090aRCRD

And cutting on warranty period anyways.

[Silk_the_Absent1]

I never had a Maxtor drive last more than a year, period. Actually, here's one of my "favorite" ones I had die on me:

http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/245/deadmaxtor.th.jpg (http://img48.imageshack.us/f/deadmaxtor.jpg/)

Take note of the burned chip, specifically the text on it...

Since Seagate bought out Maxtor, nope, not for me.

Any specific models of newer drives I should be looking for?

-Adam

[mariush]

I must have been very fortunate to not have drives die on me...

My first drive was a Maxtor 3.2 GB, lasted for years even with very few bad sectors and I think ended up as extra space on my sister's computer. Later i got a 80 GB drive, was fine until I accidentally dropped it on the floor when taking it out of a bag...

I bought Seagate then... never had a problem with them... I even have one of those that have the bad firmware and I was supposed to upgrade the firmware on it but I never did.
Lately I bought WD and so far everything looks good .. (knock on wood)

This is what I have now:

Disk Drive ST3640323AS (596 GB, IDE)
Disk Drive WDC WD1002FAEX-00Y9A0 (931 GB, IDE)
Disk Drive WDC WD10EADS-00L5B1 (931 GB, IDE)
Disk Drive WDC WD4000AAKS-00YGA0 (372 GB, IDE)

I also had a SATA1 Seagate 250 GB that I also gave to my sister...

I don't know... maybe it's because I'm buying all my drives locally from a store I know - they bring them once a week or every couple of weeks in boxes of 25-50 drives, in antistatic foil and further in that white shock resistant foam.

The whole box is probably 40-60 Kg, heavy enough that it can't be thrown out of delivery vans on the sidewalk or from person to person in the warehouse/post office so carrying it from the store to my place at least I know it took less hits and shocks.

What to buy... well I'd go on newegg.com and sort by number of ratings and reviews.. have a look at what people say (lots of them are dumb and their reviews are bogus) and I wouldn't buy the cheapest model.

There are some new WD drives with 4K sector size, which is an improvement in terms of error correction which in turn would mean more reliable drives...

[Spectre]

DeskStar FTW!

[Silk_the_Absent1]

DeskStar FTW!

I've only had one Hitachi blow on me, a 160GB 7K160. I'd consider Hitachi again.

-Adam

[MrWicked1968]

Samsung F3's are another popular choice. I don't know if the newer F4's have received the same kind of praise.

[FakeDave]

Certainly. Especially after seeing this:
http://www.seagate.com/ww/v/index.jsp?locale=en-US&name=void-warranty&vgnextoid=14de3804f3333210VgnVCM1000001a48090aRCRD

And cutting on warranty period anyways.

Thanks for the heads-up rafal, I'm glad I went with WD. Seagate was cheaper, but sometimes if you sift through hundreds of reviews you start to find a pattern. They didn't get good marks on long term reliability. I guess it's always a gamble, I'm sure every manufacturer has shipped dead units.

[Elledan]

Hitachi and Samsung are safe choices.

[Zero82z]

Samsung drives are excellent, especially the F3 and F4 models. They surpass WD drives in performance, and are generally a fair amount cheaper. I have a 1TB F1 and a 1TB F3, and both have served me very well.

[Silk_the_Absent1]

They surpass WD drives in performance, and are generally a fair amount cheaper.

Do they beat Caviar Black drives in performance?

-Adam

[Zero82z]

I'm not sure if they beat the 2TB Black drive, but they beat the others.

[Silk_the_Absent1]

That's my conundrum. I don't want to take a hit in performance (my 750GB is a Caviar Black), but I also want space. If I could afford it, I'd consider buying three more Caviar Black 750GBs, and doing a 0+1 array, but that's out of the question, so I'm having to be a bit more pragmatic while still not wanting to "downgrade;" if that makes any sense.

-Adam

[Zero82z]

The best overall drive as far as price, performance, and capacity are concerned is the Samsung F4 2TB. Like I said, I'm not entirely sure if the 2TB Black beats it or not, but either way, the Black is also much more expensive. The F4 can be found in the $70-80 range regularly, whereas the 2TB Black is more than twice that price. You could literally buy two F4s and RAID them while paying less than a single WD drive would cost.

[Silk_the_Absent1]

The F4's I'm seeing are 5400RPM, are those the specific ones you are talking about?

-Adam

[Zero82z]

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822152245

[cypherpunks]

DeskStar FTW!

Agreed. One thing I quite like is the (non-standard, but actually documented) FORMAT UNIT command they support, which lets you re-slip bad sectors if a few grow to keep RAID performance up.

Other than the notorious Deathstar 60 GXP problems years ago, they've been pretty good to me. Seagate's warranty service sucks ass. I used to use them when they were the only ones offering 5 year warranties, but I haven't enjoyed them since.

WD is much better about service, especially advance replacement.

One brand I've heard good things about, but haven't used personally, is Samsung's "spinpoint". Does anyone have any experience?

[Spectre]

Agreed. One thing I quite like is the (non-standard, but actually documented) FORMAT UNIT command they support, which lets you re-slip bad sectors if a few grow to keep RAID performance up.

Other than the notorious Deathstar 60 GXP problems years ago, they've been pretty good to me. Seagate's warranty service sucks ass. I used to use them when they were the only ones offering 5 year warranties, but I haven't enjoyed them since.

WD is much better about service, especially advance replacement.

One brand I've heard good things about, but haven't used personally, is Samsung's "spinpoint". Does anyone have any experience?

I had loads of Deathstars and none ever died on me. They all got retired (after years and years of service) before they actually crapped out :)

[Silk_the_Absent1]

Just had a thought that may or may not work. Anything in the $50-60 range any good? I could pick up a pair of drives in that range now, RAID 0 them, and in a month or two, pick up another pair, and put them in to make it a 0+1 array.

-Adam

[Zero82z]

One brand I've heard good things about, but haven't used personally, is Samsung's "spinpoint". Does anyone have any experience?
Try reading the last bunch of posts before yours :p.
Just had a thought that may or may not work. Anything in the $50-60 range any good? I could pick up a pair of drives in that range now, RAID 0 them, and in a month or two, pick up another pair, and put them in to make it a 0+1 array.

-Adam
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822152185&Tpk=samsung%20f3%201tb

[Silk_the_Absent1]

Cool, I had seen that one. Would my plan work though? Add in two additional drives to a 0 array and make it a 0+1 array without reinstalling.

-Adam

[Oklahoma Wolf]

There's a Samsung HM160HC in my Acer 4404WLMI notebook. Not a bad drive, but it tends to overheat easily in there. Often passes 60 degrees, making the touchpad above it scorching hot. I have it set to spin down as often as possible... slows the system down, but keeps it under operating temp spec for longer.

It's developed a couple bad sectors, but keeps chugging along despite the warm conditions. I'd give Sammy another go. The Acer, in comparison, needs to go. Loves to cook itself, the hard drive, and the lap of the owner ;)

[Zero82z]

Cool, I had seen that one. Would my plan work though? Add in two additional drives to a 0 array and make it a 0+1 array without reinstalling.

-Adam
I don't know if you can do that without reinstalling or building an entirely new RAID array. I don't have much experience with RAID altogether.
The Acer, in comparison, needs to go. Loves to cook itself, the hard drive, and the lap of the owner ;)
That's what you get for buying a laptop that is both an Acer and has an AMD CPU :p.

[Oklahoma Wolf]

That's what you get for buying a laptop that is both an Acer and has an AMD CPU :p.

I didn't buy it - it's a hand-me-down :p

[Spectre]

That's what you get for buying a laptop that is both an Acer and has an AMD CPU :p.

All of my laptops in the last 12 years have had AMD CPU's or Transmeta CPU's except for one...and it has an Atom.

[jonnyGURU]

There's nothing wrong with an AMD CPU... especially in a laptop.

Now that being an Acer laptop... that's a whole 'nother story. ;)

[Silk_the_Absent1]

Probably save money and just get one big drive, then.

-Adam

[Silk_the_Absent1]

I'll probably wait a couple of weeks before ordering. Newegg tends to alternate their sales, and I've got surgery coming up on the 18th, and I doubt I'll want to be lifting my case (Lian Li Rocketfish full tower) when I'm just recovering.

-Adam

[Zero82z]

There's nothing wrong with an AMD CPU... especially in a laptop.
Yes, there is. I have one and it's a piece of shit. Crap battery life, crap performance, and it puts out a ton of heat. If I had spent another $100-200 to get a C2D instead, I'd have been much better off. AMD's current line of laptop CPUs are alright, but they're still way behind Intel products in terms of performance and power efficiency.

[shovenose]

WD all the way

[shovenose]

transmeta CPUs suck

[McSteel]

Just had a thought that may or may not work. Anything in the $50-60 range any good? I could pick up a pair of drives in that range now, RAID 0 them, and in a month or two, pick up another pair, and put them in to make it a 0+1 array.

-Adam

AFAIK, the only "expandable" RAID mode (and it's not a "true RAID" level at that) is JBOD - you can add disks without re-formatting the array. Any other RAID level, and you're limited to just swapping out bad disks, with any changes to the number of units or the type of the array being invariably destructive to data.

[Oklahoma Wolf]

Now that being an Acer laptop... that's a whole 'nother story. ;)

Having X700 graphics in it doesn't help the heat issue a lot either ;)

On battery, I set it to throttle the CPU by 50% and drop the video to its most battery friendly setting. That keeps the CPU and video HSF from blasting hot air at my lap, but the hard drive still heats up big time. Then again, it wasn't really designed for 5400 RPM drives.

I can't wait to replace it. It's had a good, long life and has gone way past the point where it should have been retired.

[jonnyGURU]

Yes, there is. I have one and it's a piece of shit. Crap battery life, crap performance, and it puts out a ton of heat. If I had spent another $100-200 to get a C2D instead, I'd have been much better off. AMD's current line of laptop CPUs are alright, but they're still way behind Intel products in terms of performance and power efficiency.

Maybe if you're always buying bleeding edge (like buying a Sandybridge notebook when they first come out just to end up returning it due to chipset issues) that's the case, but AMD is only about 3 months behind Intel in meeting or beating TDP on similar speed/feature processors. For example, the T4500 is a 35W part. Turion II P520 came out two to three months later with more cache, faster FSP and is only a 25W part.

Right now I'm using a T2060, which has a 31W TDP. The same TDP as a Turion 64 X2 1.6GHz, which is a 64-bit proc released around the same time frame, and it runs at a lower voltage than the Intel.

So, yeah... RIGHT NOW, an Intel Sandy Bridge gives you more computing power, while using less power and putting out less heat. But even last year's quad core mobile Phenom II is only a 45W part. That's the same TDP as a Core i7 over 2GHz.

[mdk777]

Back to the original topic.

WD is buying Hiatachi.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-07/western-digital-to-buy-hitachi-unit-for-4-3-billion-in-cash-stock-deal.html

One less HD maker to worry about.

Re: AMD, Fusion is going to make an impact on the notebook market.

For $450, the very best Netbook on the market today.

http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/shopping/computer_can_series.do?storeName=computer_store&category=notebooks&a1=Processor&v1=AMD&series_name=dm1z_series&jumpid=in_R329_prodexp/hhoslp/psg/notebooks/AMD/dm1z_series

I'll wait for the sandybridge competitor, but the AMD graphics from now on will wipe the floor with intel ip graphics.:D

Yesterday is history... Who cares what they had 3-5 years ago.:)

[Oklahoma Wolf]

Yesterday is history... Who cares what they had 3-5 years ago.:)

Pfft. Bring back Conner, Quantum, and Miniscribe :p

[Zero82z]

Maybe if you're always buying bleeding edge (like buying a Sandybridge notebook when they first come out just to end up returning it due to chipset issues) that's the case, but AMD is only about 3 months behind Intel in meeting or beating TDP on similar speed/feature processors. For example, the T4500 is a 35W part. Turion II P520 came out two to three months later with more cache, faster FSP and is only a 25W part.

Right now I'm using a T2060, which has a 31W TDP. The same TDP as a Turion 64 X2 1.6GHz, which is a 64-bit proc released around the same time frame, and it runs at a lower voltage than the Intel.

So, yeah... RIGHT NOW, an Intel Sandy Bridge gives you more computing power, while using less power and putting out less heat. But even last year's quad core mobile Phenom II is only a 45W part. That's the same TDP as a Core i7 over 2GHz.
I have an HP laptop with a Turion X2 (technically an Athlon 64 X2, but it's the same CPU except with less cache). It supposedly has a 31W TDP, but it runs hotter and has poorer battery life than the same laptop with either a Core Duo or a Core 2 Duo CPU. It's also slower than a Core Duo or a C2D, even considering the fact that Core Duo CPUs don't have 64-bit support.

TDP is one thing. Actual power consumption and battery life is another. In real-world situations, Intel-based notebooks almost always have better battery life than competing AMD-based products. The grass might seem greener to you, but I've used both Intel and AMD laptops and Intel is the winner by a mile.
Re: AMD, Fusion is going to make an impact on the notebook market.
Netbook market, yes, but probably not the full-size notebook market.

[mdk777]

Netbook market, yes, but probably not the full-size notebook market.

Again, you are looking backward and not forward. I have an intel notebook because about 6 years ago when I got it, most of what you say about AMD was true.

However, when Llano comes out (a Bulldozer core for notebooks) coupled with the AMD FUSION GPU, you will see a real competition in the full size notebook market.

http://semiaccurate.com/2011/03/02/amd-reveals-first-llano-apu-details/

[mariush]

Back to the original topic.

WD is buying Hiatachi.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-07/western-digital-to-buy-hitachi-unit-for-4-3-billion-in-cash-stock-deal.html

One less HD maker to worry about.

Re: AMD, Fusion is going to make an impact on the notebook market.

For $450, the very best Netbook on the market today.

http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/shopping/computer_can_series.do?storeName=computer_store&category=notebooks&a1=Processor&v1=AMD&series_name=dm1z_series&jumpid=in_R329_prodexp/hhoslp/psg/notebooks/AMD/dm1z_series

I'll wait for the sandybridge competitor, but the AMD graphics from now on will wipe the floor with intel ip graphics.:D

Yesterday is history... Who cares what they had 3-5 years ago.:)

If only the screen on that notebook wasn't so CRAP...

[jonnyGURU]

I have an HP laptop....

I'll stop you right there. You have a laptop with a crappy thermal design and you're going to blame AMD?

If only the screen on that notebook wasn't so CRAP...

Its an HP. More than the screen is crap. Good thing for HP that they have a strong brand name. If people judged them for the poor designs that they employ instead of the fact that they've been around forever, nobody would ever buy their product.

[Zero82z]

I'll stop you right there. You have a laptop with a crappy thermal design and you're going to blame AMD?
Somehow, the same laptop with an Intel CPU still manages to be a lot better. So, yes, I blame AMD.

[jonnyGURU]

Somehow, the same laptop with an Intel CPU still manages to be a lot better. So, yes, I blame AMD.

Odd. How are the two laptops the exact same yet use two different kinds of CPU's? Last I checked, Intel and AMD processors used different sockets. ;)

[MrWicked1968]

Odd. How are the two laptops the exact same yet use two different kinds of CPU's? Last I checked, Intel and AMD processors used different sockets. ;)

maybe his is a socket 7 laptop :D

[mdk777]

OK so you don't like HP.(my HP 15C from 1982 still works flawlessly)
There is going to be industry wide design wins, pick your favorite:

http://www.fudzilla.com/notebooks/item/22020-amd-shows-a-lot-of-fusion-wins

Too soon for showing competition against sandy-bridge, but they will come.:D

[jonnyGURU]

I don't tend to like HP designs. They tend to things that aren't broken for the sake of aesthetics.

For example: I grabbed a shell shocker deal on a Core i3 w/ Nvidia GPU for only $599 with 4GB DDR3 and a 500GB HDD. Performance wise, great PC. But they redesigned the keyboard layout and physical feel of the keys. Not for any functional purpose, but beacuse it "looked cool". I've got two Gateways, a Lenovo and two Asus Eee PC's and I can type flawlessly on any of them, but not the HP.

And then there's the touchpad. Instead of making the buttons separate from the touchpad, they integrated the buttons into the touchpad. Ok... no big deal. Slight adjustment. But they made the surface of the touchpad that is the buttons and also made it a part of the area you can use to move the mouse pointer and you can't disable it. So if I click on something with my thumb and lift the other finger off the touchpad, the computer things I want to jump the mouse pointer from one part of the screen to the other. Who thought of this and didn't bother field testing it??? OMG!

And then you have the power connector. The connector is about 3" long and plugs in on the right. So your notebook might only be about 17" wide over all, but with the power connector sticking out of the right side, it might as well be a good 20" wide. My Gateways plug in the back and have 90° power connectors so they take up under 1" of real estate. The Lenovo and Asus Eee PC plug in on the side, but they too have a 90° connector, so they're no issue either.

Just dumb, stupid, design decisions that do nothing to improve performance and usability. Dumb dumb dumb.

Oh, and far as thermal designs... The Gateways have big grills over the fans and a huge side vent on the side. The Lenovo is essentially perforated on the bottom. There isn't even a square inch of solid plastic underneath. The HP? Small vent on one side, slightly larger on the other, bottom is primarily solid. Gets hot as hell. WHY?!

An HP from 1982 is entirely different. The company that built that thing for them probably isn't even still in business. That's like saying the first 10 seasons of the Simpsons were funny, so why shouldn't the rest of them also be funny?

[Oklahoma Wolf]

Oh, and far as thermal designs... The Gateways have big grills over the fans and a huge side vent on the side.

When I landed my dead Gateway PA6A off eBay the other week, what impressed me the most was that it looks like it intentionally has an airflow path to the HSF around the hard drive :)

Doesn't look like it pulls a lot of air from around there, but it's a lot better than the Acer entombing its hard drive in a black plastic coffin of death directly under the touchpad.

[mdk777]

I don't tend to like HP designs.

OK, yeah, I get it.:)

I have always gone for the heavy iron in notebooks to get the better graphics cards. (my last was a Dell LAT 810 with 1920x1200 screen)

I have to say I am getting tired of the 15# notebook bag going through the airport.

I recently skipped the entire net-book trend and went to a 4G phone instead.
(MOTO ATRIX 4G)

Haven't taken it on the road yet, but with my WIFI, I have to say I am pretty impressed.

You play around with the android apps and you can see where the entire hand-held computer market is going to give net/notebooks a run for the money.:D

For CAD DESIGN and Rendering, I will probably get a new "portable", but for just short sales trips, I may just go mobile.:)

[jonnyGURU]

Yeah. I have to admit that my Android phone has me whipping out the notebook a lot less on trips. Add to it that it has a full QWERTY keyboard and I'm doing everything just short of playing FSP's while waiting for my plane.

As soon as I can get an Android based netbook or convertible, I'll probably never use a Windows based notebook for anything but casual gaming. I think Asus has one now or coming out soon. I'll have to see if I can find one and check it out.

[Tator Tot]

Yeah. I have to admit that my Android phone has me whipping out the notebook a lot less on trips. Add to it that it has a full QWERTY keyboard and I'm doing everything just short of playing FSP's while waiting for my plane.

How you know you're a PSU nerd :lol:

[jonnyGURU]

LOL.. Yeah... FPS's.

[Tator Tot]

Well you can play an FPS on your android device right now. Quake 2, Doom 1 &2, along with some newer titles are out there.

[Zero82z]

Odd. How are the two laptops the exact same yet use two different kinds of CPU's? Last I checked, Intel and AMD processors used different sockets. ;)
Oh, come on. The same generation of laptop, same size, same cooling solution. Obviously the motherboards were different. The AMD version was slower, ran hotter, and had poorer battery life. I don't see how it could be more clear-cut than that.

[jonnyGURU]

The motherboard and motherboard layout can be very different because of many reasons (Northbridge location, VRM location, etc.). Unfortunately, HP likes to use the same A, B, C and D panel to save on tooling costs so one layout that works best for an Intel or AMD CPU motherboard may not be the best solution for the other. They just manipulate the heatsinks and heatpipes to work the best with the space they have.

If you look at a couple Clevo models, for example, you'll see there is no "same generation, same size, same cooling solution". An AMD platform is completely different than an Intel platform because the motherboards are different and the motherboards have different layouts and different cooling needs.

[Silk_the_Absent1]

Aye, post and you may be warned, run, and you'll live... at least for a while. And dying in your beds, many years from now, would you be willin' to trade ALL the days, from this day to that, for one chance, just one chance, to come back here and tell the fanbois that they may delete our posts, but they'll never take... OUR FREEDOM!

-Adam

[Zero82z]

The motherboard and motherboard layout can be very different because of many reasons (Northbridge location, VRM location, etc.). Unfortunately, HP likes to use the same A, B, C and D panel to save on tooling costs so one layout that works best for an Intel or AMD CPU motherboard may not be the best solution for the other. They just manipulate the heatsinks and heatpipes to work the best with the space they have.
I feel like I'm talking to a wall. Now you're arguing with me about how the laptops are more different than I think (which you're wrong about), but you still cannot deny the fact that the Intel versions were superior to the AMD versions. Cooling differences alone would not explain the difference in performance, nor the difference in battery life.

[MrWicked1968]

maybe I missed something in this whole intel vs. amd laptop pissing contest, but was it ever established which AMD and Intel processors were being used?

[Zero82z]

maybe I missed something in this whole intel vs. amd laptop pissing contest, but was it ever established which AMD and Intel processors were being used?
Core Duo vs. Core 2 Duo vs. Turion X2, all with supposedly the same TDP.

[jonnyGURU]

I feel like I'm talking to a wall. Now you're arguing with me about how the laptops are more different than I think (which you're wrong about), but you still cannot deny the fact that the Intel versions were superior to the AMD versions. Cooling differences alone would not explain the difference in performance, nor the difference in battery life.

I'm hearing you. I'm sure you are well aware of how different those laptops are. Which is why I think you're just being a bit more Intel biased than you're willing to admit. Intel bias is ok. Like I said, the Intel mobile chips always come out faster and cooler running and use less battery life when they first come out. But I also said that it only takes a few months for an AMD chip of the same performance, TDP and battery life to come out after the fact... and at a much lower price.

Core Duo vs. Core 2 Duo vs. Turion X2, all with supposedly the same TDP.

Now it sounds like you're trying to make it seem like the same CPU should have the same performance and battery life if the TDP is the same. I never said that. I gave examples of equivalent performance CPU's that are the same TDP. There's a difference. You can get a slower CPU with less cache that's an equivalent TDP than another. I'm not stupid. I'm just trying to address your position that AMD CPU's are always inferior, always behind the curve and are never a viable option, which is complete hog wash.

For the record, I'm typing this on a notebook with a Core i3. ;)

[jonnyGURU]

I have an HP laptop with a Turion X2 (technically an Athlon 64 X2, but it's the same CPU except with less cache). It supposedly has a 31W TDP, but it runs hotter and has poorer battery life than the same laptop with either a Core Duo or a Core 2 Duo CPU. It's also slower than a Core Duo or a C2D, even considering the fact that Core Duo CPUs don't have 64-bit support.

I think the misunderstanding came early on. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I gave specific examples and your response used vague examples and I never addressed that.

So here's where I think you think I'm only comparing TDP's... which, like I said, I'm not. You know the TDP's are the same with these particular CPU's, but which Turion X2 CPU and which Core 2 Duo is this? I admit, there are A LOT of different Turion CPU's with A LOT of different cores (from 90nm to 45nm) and the same goes with Core Duo procs, and there is definitely a lot of overlap in TDP where some slower CPU's are higher TDP than some faster ones. So yes... If we're talking about an AMD processor from 2007 and comparing it to an Intel CPU from 2009 and they're the same TDP... sure, the Intel is far superior in every way. But that's not what I said and that's not what I'm comparing. In my previous post, I gave two specific examples of two CPU's released three months apart.

If I bought an AMD based notebook that was bleeding edge at the time and then Intel came out with a better processor four months later and it ran faster, cooler and used less battery life, yeah.. I'd be pissed too. Instead, I'm the guy that buys the cool Intel notebook and then I get pissed off that an AMD based one comes out four months later that runs faster, cooler and uses less battery life. ;)

Your point was that buying an AMD based notebook is a mistake because they're always lower performance, run hotter and suck up more battery (paraphrasing the way I heard what you were saying). I'm just not going to agree with you on that.

[HangFire]

A very temperate and well-reasoned response, jonnyGURU.

Can we get back to arguing about hard drives now?

[MrWicked1968]

I think we solved the HD issue. Western Digital blues and Samsung F3's and F4's.

[mdk777]

The real question is what ssd to get.
ocz Vertex 3 or other?

HD are now just a commodity. Sure, some are better than others....but the big jump in performance comes from the SATA III SSD that will be on the market.

:):D

[Oklahoma Wolf]

This thread sure is giving me a craving for a Samsung F4 2TB. Ah well, I like to replace hard drives every 2 years anyway ;)

but the big jump in performance comes from the SATA III SSD that will be on the market.

Every time I get the hankering for an SSD I go look at the prices. Kills the urge every time. At one point in my life I was willing to drop over $150 on storage, but that time is long past.

Most expensive hard drives for me were my Fujitsu 1.7GB ($275) and my WD 45GB ($320). That WD was the biggest thing on the market at the time.

[Zero82z]

Stuff
I have a reply to you bouncing around my head, but I whacked my finger with a hammer earlier today and I don't really feel like going through the pain to type it out.

[Silk_the_Absent1]

I have a reply to you bouncing around my head, but I whacked my finger with a hammer earlier today and I don't really feel like going through the pain to type it out.

Good thing Windows has built-in speech recognition.

Unfortunately for me, I haven't used speech recognition in a while, and apparently my constant tonsillitis has really screwed with my voice.

My computer now thinks when I say "f*ck," I'm saying "Bach."

Ahh well, that's why I'm going to have surgery a week from tomorrow.

-Adam

[Spectre]

A very temperate and well-reasoned response, jonnyGURU.

Can we get back to arguing about hard drives now?

You're new here aren't you?

[HangFire]

You're new here aren't you?

No, I just forgot the smiley. :)

-HF

[CoiL_Wyne]

Back to hard drives.

I've got a small stack of older 640 and 1TB WD blacks and 3 Samsung F3 500GB and an F2 1TB, along with a mix of WD blues.

The F3's are quite a bit snappier than any black I've got, not to mention about 10000x quieter. Some things don't turn up in benchmarks, like my F3's tearing all my WD blacks a new one when building thumbnails.

WD blacks major drawback is that they are very loud in anything they do. I got sick of them and used acoustic management software to neuter their seeks and reads just to make them bearable to use...as back up, not main drives which obviates the purpose of them.

F3 major drawback is that they vibrate like nothing else. I've got them all sitting on foam pads because they made the side panels on my PC's hum, which is greatly annoying.

WD blues are quiet and don't vibrate, but they aren't anything special in the speed department.

My Samsung F2 is a 5400 RPM drive, and it's quiet and reasonably fast for a 5400 RPM unit.

My main PC has an Intel 120 GB G2 SSD as boot/apps drive, with a 500 GB F3 for games and pics and the F2 just to hold backups. This a nice setup in terms of speed, price and relative silence.

[CoiL_Wyne]

There's nothing wrong with an AMD CPU... especially in a laptop.

Now that being an Acer laptop... that's a whole 'nother story. ;)

Sho nuff. I've got a Gateway NV something or other with an Athlon II (M300) at 2 GHz and it runs very cool and it's got a fan that isn't at all annoying when it ramps up.

[Silk_the_Absent1]

I'm not too worried about vibration; my case is a Lian Li Rocketfish full tower, and the hard drives are installed with rubber doughnuts to dampen vibration.

As for the WD Black drive being noisy, I've never really been bothered by it. But, then again, I live in central New Mexico, and even in the cold months, run a fan in my bedroom to keep air circulating. Now, if you want loud, try having one of these (http://www.mytoos.com/noise.shtml) in your bedroom, too.

-Adam

[Zero82z]

Back to hard drives.

I've got a small stack of older 640 and 1TB WD blacks and 3 Samsung F3 500GB and an F2 1TB, along with a mix of WD blues.
Also keep in mind that the 1TB F3s have twice as much cache as the 500GB model and are faster as well.

[Silk_the_Absent1]

Which is faster/better; this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822152244) or this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822152181)?

Thinking of getting two and putting them in a 0 array for OS, games, and applications; and keeping my 750GB Caviar Black as my documents drive.

Also, if anyone has any other smallish, but fast drive recommendations for that idea, let me know. I still want the 2TB drive, but I also want a speedy setup for programs. So when I get the money, I'll get the 2TB F4, move my documents to it, and put the Caviar Black in an enclosure and have it portable.

-Adam

[McSteel]

The F3 is faster, but vibrates a bit more. Noise is around the same - very low.

I'd take the F3. Though using HDDs that have long timeouts for sector relocation is ill-advised in RAID arrays...

[Silk_the_Absent1]

Though using HDDs that have long timeouts for sector relocation is ill-advised in RAID arrays...

Like I said, I'd appreciate any recommendations. If there is something better, I'll consider it.

I may also keep the 750GB Caviar Black for my OS, Applications, Games, and Page File partitions, and put a 2TB as my Documents drive. I'm considering any options at this point.

-Adam

[McSteel]

If you're planning a RAID array, you're best off using drives that are RAID-optimized. Practically, the only difference between a top-level "ordinary" desktop drive and an entry-level enterprise drive is in the firmware. Very rarely, one encounters drives with hand-picked batches of platter motors, head motors, platters themselves or other parts, and that's usually reserved for $300+ models. The only RAID-optimized Samsung HDD to be found on NewEgg is the 1TB F3R (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822152238), which is a fantastic drive. If there was a way to easily and reliably re-write/re-program the firmware of a drive at home, you could pretty much "convert" a "normal" F3 into an F3R, with some differences.

So what's this all about? Well, RAID controllers typically don't allow for more than 8 seconds (by convention) of latency between issuing a command to a hard drive and receiving it's response (be it the requested data/operation or an error report). Desktop drives can take longer than 30 seconds, or more, in some cases (bad sectors etc.), and while the drive still functions, the RAID controller will declare it as malfunctioning and degrade the RAID array, or, in the case of non-redundant arrays (such as RAID0 and JBOD), break the array. This is, of course, unacceptable. Enterprise class drives typically take up to 7 seconds to complete an operation, after which they signal an error to the controller, if the requested operation has not finished in that time frame. This keeps the array going, leaving the OS to "decide" how it will deal with the error, instead of making the controller mark the drive as malfunctioning. On top of this, enterprise drives usually have stricter acoustic and thermal management AND faster seek times, sometimes even control CPUs that allow more I/O operations per second than those of a corresponding desktop model. Most of them also support staggered spin-up and stand-by at the drive level. Samsung quotes noticeably faster seek and access times, and gives 5 years of warranty instead of the usual 3, as well as a lower unrecoverable error rate. They also support stand-by, spin-down and staggered spin-up. Here's their article (http://www.samsung.com/global/business/hdd/learningresource/whitepapers/LearningResource_CCTL.html) describing the error recovery routine on HDDs.

Hope this helps. All of the above applies to other manufacturers as well, they just have different names for it. WD calls it TLER (Time-Limited Error Recovery), Seagate calls it ERC (Error Recovery Correction) and Samsung calls it CCTL (Command Completion Time Limit).

[Silk_the_Absent1]

So, something like this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136797&cm_re=tler-_-22-136-797-_-Product), then?

Interesting. It seems to me that the Caviar Black line might just be rebadged RE4 drives.

-Adam

[McSteel]

Yes, something like that. I still prefer Samsung, but WD shouldn't let you down either.

And they indeed were pretty much the same, up until very recently. You could take any WD FASS drive and turn it into a FYYS via some simple changes through WD's own DOS-based control software, and/or via firmware edit/update. Newer enterprise class drives are actually different on a hardware level as well as firmware, so this is no longer possible. Also, new regular Caviar Blacks no longer support setting of TLER command(s)...

[Silk_the_Absent1]

I'm not holding to any brand loyalty (though I've never had a Maxtor last more than a year), just seeing what my options are if I want to go the RAID route.

-Adam

[Silk_the_Absent1]

Also, new regular Caviar Blacks no longer support setting of TLER command(s)...

Hmm, on that note, do you know if this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136283) one does? That's the one I have, and if it does, I may order a second one for now and 0 them, and add the 2TB F4 in the Summer.

-Adam

[Oklahoma Wolf]

Newegg Canada just put the F4 2TB on sale for $75 Canadian plus shipping. Couldn't possibly say no to that price, so mine's now on its way here :)

[Silk_the_Absent1]

Let me know how it compares in terms of performance, to your "old" drive.

-Adam

[McSteel]

Hmm, on that note, do you know if this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136283) one does? That's the one I have, and if it does, I may order a second one for now and 0 them, and add the 2TB F4 in the Summer.

-Adam

If it was made before August 2009, then you can use the WDTLER utility. If not, well, tough luck...

[Silk_the_Absent1]

It should be fine then. I ordered it December 4th, 2008. So, if I can find another one from earlier than August, 2009, I should be good. I'll keep an eye out, but I doubt it will pan out, so I'll plan for now on getting the 2TB F4 as soon as I can afford it.

-Adam

[Silk_the_Absent1]

Emailed Newegg asking them if they can check if any of them are from that time frame. If there are, I'll order one.

-Adam

[Zero82z]

I think it's extremely unlikely that Newegg will have two-year-old hard drives in stock.

[Silk_the_Absent1]

Yours come in yet, Wolf?

-Adam

[Oklahoma Wolf]

Nope.

[Oklahoma Wolf]

It's here. Currently moving 291GB from the WD Black 640GB to the new drive... it's taking a while. Currently half done and moving at 61 MB/Sec.

Then I get to move 303GB over from the old Seagate 500GB 7200.11. And then 100GB from the Maxtor Diamondmax 10. And then about 150GB from the WD 250GB over to the Black.

Retiring all these old drives is going to take a while, methinks.

The WD Black will still be the boot/OS drive.

[mariush]

I would hold on to the data on the old drives for a while, don't move it. If the drive makes it over 2 weeks, chances are it will work for a long time.

[Oklahoma Wolf]

I'm doing that with the important stuff. The old Seagate is needed elsewhere anyway.

[Silk_the_Absent1]

Currently half done and moving at 61 MB/Sec.

Not bad. Less than the 2TB Caviar Black, but the price difference more than makes up for that.

I'd probably use it as a Documents drive, and keep my 750GB Caviar Black for my OS, Games, Applications, and Page File partitions. I'll probably order one when they go on sale again, which seems to be every couple of weeks with Newegg.

-Adam

[Oklahoma Wolf]

It did 105MB/sec while it was copying over the storage drive.