The most stable/efficient/reliable sub-500w ATX PSU?

[jalyst]

Hi Folks,

As the title says...
Just interested in peoples thoughts on the ideal PSU for a HTPC/PVR I'm building.

Components:
1x Core i3-530 CPU
4x 2GB CL7 DDR3-1600Mhz RAM (low voltage, 1.35v)
1x ATX H57 Motherboard (Asus)
1x Intel X25V 40GB SSD
This will prolly change to 4x 2.5" SSD's (diff. makes/models too)
Composed of; 1 scratch-disk RAID-0, & 1 boot/sys RAID-0.
1x Samsung F3 3.5" 1TB HDD
This will prolly change to 2x 2TB WD Green (or similar)
1x PCI DVB-C tuner + 1x USB powered smart-card reader
1x PCIe Dual-hybrid DVB-T tuner (HVR-2200)
1x PCI soundcard & 7.1 daughter-board (Essence ST & H6)
A few Case/CPU fans...
Possible extras:
1x USB DAB+ tuner & maybe some other USB powered devices, aside from the usual suspects.
1x PCIe graphics card (GT-220; depends on IGP's performance in Linux)
1x extra PCIe soundcard
1x extra PCIe tuner (DVB-T/C YTBD)
1x extra PCIe tuner (I'll only have this extra slot if I can manage to mount my H6 such that it doesn't take any expansion/pci slots)
These PCIe devices may be swapped-out for one or two other things.
Can't recall them right now....

I suspect all this should still easily be powered by something under 500watt.
But I'm guessing there's a more methodical way to determine this!?!

Whatever the wattage requirements, I realise the virtue in having some 'head-room'.
After determining roughly how much wattage I need...
Equally important is identifying the most efficient/stable/reliable PSU at that wattage (or the wattage I'll sit at mostly).

I don't care too much about quietness, so long as it's not ridiculously loud!
Modular is a must too, as I'm working in a case which although roomy for a desktop, will still be "fiddly".
Any advice or recommendations greatly appreciated!

Thank-you.

[mdk777]

see this thread on why there are not low wattage SUPER effective/stable/reliable available.

http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6738

Hence while you will not need it , the best available today is Seasonic x650
While it is 650 watts, it is still very efficient at very low wattages.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151088

second best: lowest wattage modular

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151093

PS accurate determination of your real load is moot. This is as low as the modular PSU go at the moment.
PSS lower, better wattage PSU might launch later in the year, but these are the ones available today.

ANtec new TP 550 is similar to above and widely available, but less modular.

[Lemmy]

Enermax has low wattage modular PSUs, but the Liberty Eco 400W is $80 + shipping.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817194042


The Eco80+ is a little cheaper : http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817194075

Good ~500W PSU are Antec Earthwatts Green, New Eco, Corsair VX450, Seasonic S12II series.

[Proximon]

As has been pointed out, just because you don't need a lot of power doesn't mean you can't get a beefier PSU. Also, you have a lot of devices named there, and may need the extra cabling of a larger unit.

I think the X650, if price is not a big issue, is a great choice. If not then the S12II/M12II units.

[mdk777]

Enermax has low wattage modular PSUs, but the Liberty Eco 400W is $80 + shipping.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817194042



Yes but not in stock.
They also list two 80 + gold in this range on the 80+ listing, but I have not seen them in retail.:)

[jalyst]

Enermax has low wattage modular PSUs, but the Liberty Eco 400W is $80 + shipping.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817194042


This one looks perfect, pricing doesn't look expensive to me, none of the models suggested are out of my budget.
Just as efficient/stable/reliable as the x650 it seems*, but no excess wattage that I'll most likely never use.
And modular to boot!

*anyone disagree, why?

[jalyst]

As has been pointed out, just because you don't need a lot of power doesn't mean you can't get a beefier PSU.

Yeah but if you have a 80+ 600+ watt unit & you never draw anywhere near that on avg, surely it's going to be bested by a 80+ unit tailored for lower avg. draws?

If not then the S12II/M12II units.

What's the difference between the S12II and the M12II units?

[blivit4]

Yeah but if you have a 80+ 600+ watt unit & you never draw anywhere near that on avg, surely it's going to be bested by a 80+ unit tailored for lower avg. draws?


No, the computer draws whatever power it needs. Even if you have a 1000w PS and the computer draws only 100w, then that is the only power that is used. The only wrinkle here is PS efficiency. The efficiency of most PS's drops significantly when the load goes below 20% of rated capacity. The X650, however, is pretty good down to 10% load and probably more efficient than most 500w supplies with a 60w load.

[mdk777]

yeah its just a matter of good vs. best.

the Enermax will be at around 80% at 100 watts

http://www.80plus.org/manu/psu/psu_reports/SP311_ENERMAX_ESL400AWT_400W_Report.pdf

While the Seasonic 650 x will be closer to 85% at 100 watts

http://www.80plus.org/manu/psu/psu_reports/SP633_SEASONIC_SS650KM_COMBO_650W_Report.pdf

The Seasonic 520 will be somewhere in the middle, around 83% at 100 watts

http://www.80plus.org/manu/psu/psu_reports/SEA%20SONIC_M12II-520_ECOS%201796_520W_Report.pdf

As you can see on this last chart, the line is nearly flat. This is an improvement that has occurred over the last couple of years, efficiency bellow the 80+ standards of 20% rate test.

What's the difference between the S12II and the M12II units?
1 Hour Ago 12:00 AM

just the cost in relationship to modular or not.

Yeah but if you have a 80+ 600+ watt unit & you never draw anywhere near that on avg, surely it's going to be bested by a 80+ unit tailored for lower avg. draws?


not with the newest high end DC conversion. The Enermax is an older design.
I have nothing against them, but i would wait for their newer lines to launch myself before picking it over the Seasonics.

[Proximon]

S12II has fixed cables and M12II is modular. That's it.

MDK777 did a great job spelling it out for you there.

[jalyst]

...

[jalyst]

yeah its just a matter of good vs. best.

the Enermax will be at around 80% at 100 watts
http://www.80plus.org/manu/psu/psu_reports/SP311_ENERMAX_ESL400AWT_400W_Report.pdf

While the Seasonic 650 x will be closer to 85% at 100 watts
http://www.80plus.org/manu/psu/psu_reports/SP633_SEASONIC_SS650KM_COMBO_650W_Report.pdf

The Seasonic 520 will be somewhere in the middle, around 83% at 100 watts
http://www.80plus.org/manu/psu/psu_reports/SEA%20SONIC_M12II-520_ECOS%201796_520W_Report.pdf

As you can see on this last chart, the line is nearly flat. This is an improvement that has occurred over the last couple of years, efficiency bellow the 80+ standards of 20% rate test.

just the cost in relationship to modular or not.

not with the newest high end DC conversion. The Enermax is an older design.
I have nothing against them, but i would wait for their newer lines to launch myself before picking it over the Seasonics.

Interesting site, I was not aware of it, thanks for pointing it out!
Thanks for explaining the difference between S12 and M12 series too.

So the only OEM with cutting-edge "80+ gold standard" DC conversion as of now is Seasonic?

[Proximon]

Not at all. There are many OEMs that make good 80+ PSUs, just not much in that power range.

CWT and Delta both have 80+ bronze units in the same range:
Corsair 550VX - CWT
Antec EA-500D - Delta

But you did say you wanted the best.

[jalyst]

Not at all. There are many OEMs that make good 80+ PSUs, just not much in that power range.

CWT and Delta both have 80+ bronze units in the same range:
Corsair 550VX - CWT
Antec EA-500D - Delta

But you did say you wanted the best.

Sorry I meant "80+ gold standard" but I see there is others.
But I guess none of those "others" have quite the same DC output quality as the X-650?

[jalyst]

No, the computer draws whatever power it needs. Even if you have a 1000w PS and the computer draws only 100w, then that is the only power that is used. The only wrinkle here is PS efficiency. The efficiency of most PS's drops significantly when the load goes below 20% of rated capacity.

Yeah that's what I was trying to articulate, came out wrong :o

The X650, however, is pretty good down to 10% load and probably more efficient than most 500w supplies with a 60w load.

I wonder with my set-up if I'm likely to sit at 65w or below a lot of time.
I wouldn't be surprised if I am...

That being the case, I may often be below 10% load...
How does it handle load below that, does it drop right off in efficiency at that point?

I guess no other PSU's would necessarily be dramatically better at that point?

I've been told the new x-series coming out in approx. 2mth aren't much of a change at all.
Just a marketing tweak by altering wattage amounts across the line etc.

Weird....
Seasonic's not listed as one of the OEM's that's gold/platinum certified for 230v internal (it's on the site for 115v)
http://www.80plus.org/manu/psu/psu_join.aspx

[jalyst]

yeah its just a matter of good vs. best.

the Enermax will be at around 80% at 100 watts

http://www.80plus.org/manu/psu/psu_reports/SP311_ENERMAX_ESL400AWT_400W_Report.pdf

While the Seasonic 650 x will be closer to 85% at 100 watts

http://www.80plus.org/manu/psu/psu_reports/SP633_SEASONIC_SS650KM_COMBO_650W_Report.pdf

The Seasonic 520 will be somewhere in the middle, around 83% at 100 watts

http://www.80plus.org/manu/psu/psu_reports/SEA%20SONIC_M12II-520_ECOS%201796_520W_Report.pdf

As you can see on this last chart, the line is nearly flat. This is an improvement that has occurred over the last couple of years, efficiency bellow the 80+ standards of 20% rate test.

not with the newest high end DC conversion. The Enermax is an older design.
I have nothing against them, but i would wait for their newer lines to launch myself before picking it over the Seasonics.

Is this the newer line you were referring too?

ENERMAX_EMG500AWT_ECOS 1746_500W
http://80plus.org/manu/psu/psu_reports/ENERMAX_EMG500AWT_ECOS%201746_500W_Report.pdf

ENERMAX_EMG450AWG_ECOS 1932_450W
http://80plus.org/manu/psu/psu_reports/ENERMAX_EMG450AWG_ECOS%201932_450W_80+_Report.pdf

SP633_SEASONIC_SS650KM_COMBO_650W
http://www.80plus.org/manu/psu/psu_reports/SP633_SEASONIC_SS650KM_COMBO_650W_Report.pdf

Looks just as good (if not better) than the x-650 all up.
Unless I'm misinterpreting the data?

[mdk777]

Yes, they have announced at trade shows. There will be continuous improvement in the industry. (I don't see power costs going down any time soon.)

And with improved idling characteristics, turbo mode, cool & quite etc. continuing to lower the draw of even the most powerful desktop at rest, I don't see attention to the broad-range efficiency going away any time soon.

The only question is how long you are willing to wait.
Some units announce last year never made it to market, or were only available in the higher wattage ranges.

Sometime between now and the end of the year is my best guess.

Could be sooner, but I would place my bet on wide availability for the holiday season. (maybe back to school)

As the Corsair rep. said, everyone will continue to compete, but as of today, the SEASONIC 650 X is your best choice.:D

[jalyst]

...

[Smoothie]

Im using my M12D until all the new PSU's come out with good reviews. Then I will decide and pick up a "Gold" unit. I heard from Gi Joe (Im pretty sure thats his forum name here) the new Enermax Revolution 87+ (Gold) are going to be coming out late this year.

[Phaedrus2129]

Im using my M12D until all the new PSU's come out with good reviews. Then I will decide and pick up a "Gold" unit. I heard from Gi Joe (Im pretty sure thats his forum name here) the new Enermax Revolution 87+ (Gold) are going to be coming out late this year.

Why? The jump from 80+ Silver to Gold isn't that big, and the M12D is in the "good enough that you won't notice anything better" category. Fantastic PSUs those, don't see why you'd need to upgrade unless you're moving to some really hard-hitting hardware.

[jalyst]

Yes, they have announced at trade shows. There will be continuous improvement in the industry. (I don't see power costs going down any time soon.)

And with improved idling characteristics, turbo mode, cool & quite etc. continuing to lower the draw of even the most powerful desktop at rest, I don't see attention to the broad-range efficiency going away any time soon.

The only question is how long you are willing to wait.
Some units announce last year never made it to market, or were only available in the higher wattage ranges.

Sometime between now and the end of the year is my best guess.

Could be sooner, but I would place my bet on wide availability for the holiday season. (maybe back to school)

As the Corsair rep. said, everyone will continue to compete, but as of today, the SEASONIC 650 X is your best choice.:D

So you believe these Enermax units (despite being better overall) aren't out now & most likely wont be in a few weeks?

Getting much closer to "flashing the plastic" for an x-650 ;) Good-night.

[mdk777]

So you believe these Enermax units (despite being better overall) aren't out now & most likely wont be in a few weeks?

Correct:D

Except "better overall" hasn't been proven yet.
And when it is determined one way or the other, I don't expect the difference to be very significant.

At the efficiency that the Seasonic is at, it is really impossible to return a "significant" improvement. (there just isn't enough room left between 90% and the impossible 100%)

The battle will have to turn to quality(warranty), availability, price, cables, etc. etc. etc.

[Hondacity]

enermax modu87 600 is more efficient(normal use) and more silent than the seasonic x650

i'm gonna get burnt :D

[mdk777]

No flames here. I'm sure they are both very close. So close that the difference can be tipped one way or the other depending on which metric you weight the most and your usage pattern I'm sure.:)

Of course you can't get any quieter than stopped on the fan, right?;)

[Hondacity]

you're right fan is dead till 150w....

[Ancient_1]

enermax modu87 600 is more efficient(normal use) and more silent than the seasonic x650

i'm gonna get burnt :D
You may be right about the efficiency during normal use but not silence. Under normal use I would bet most of the time the SeaSonic would run fan-less and never get to the point where the fan would become noticeable. I know on my system I ran the OCCT PS test the fan did not come on for the 1st 45mins and when it did it was slow enough that I could see the individual blades on the fan as it rotated on my X-750.

While I have a fairly low power vid card (HD 4670) rest of the system is fairly power hungry consisting of i7 920 @ 4g with 7 large HDs and 4 HDTV capture cards.

I also believe that the SeaSonic has better build quality even if the difference is small and the main reason I say that is it has all Japanese 105° caps, they went to the expense of putting in a San Ace fan and has better electrical performance from the reviews I have seen.

One thing is that I haven't seen is both those exact models tested at the same place with the same equipment even tho there a few that have different wattage units of the same family tested. Since both have very good efficiency and most place them within a couple percent it really comes down to the equipment and individual samples I would guess.

Although I don't like how they rate their recommended PS's with silence being the main criteria I do like the way they do low load tests as far as efficiency goes at SPCR. Here are links the the Modu87+ 500W (http://www.silentpcreview.com/article1044-page4.html) and the X-650 (http://www.silentpcreview.com/article986-page4.html)

[Hondacity]

for i7..thats definitely a power hog.

thanks for the links...

time to read into it

[jalyst]

Sorry folks, not sure how I missed these subsequent posts! :eek:

enermax modu87 600 is more efficient(normal use) and more silent than the seasonic x650

i'm gonna get burnt :D

Thanks, I didn't realise there's another gold certified unit with a similar wattage (want to stay below 1000w) that's already out!

No flames here. I'm sure they are both very close. So close that the difference can be tipped one way or the other depending on which metric you weight the most and your usage pattern I'm sure.:)

Of course you can't get any quieter than stopped on the fan, right?;)

What metrics are each model strongest in?
I don't care about one being quieter than the other, both will be quiet enough.
My OP should indicate my general usage pattern.

You may be right about the efficiency during normal use but not silence. Under normal use I would bet most of the time the SeaSonic would run fan-less and never get to the point where the fan would become noticeable. I know on my system I ran the OCCT PS test the fan did not come on for the 1st 45mins and when it did it was slow enough that I could see the individual blades on the fan as it rotated on my X-750.

I personally don't care about it's silence edge.

I also believe that the SeaSonic has better build quality even if the difference is small and the main reason I say that is it has all Japanese 105° caps, they went to the expense of putting in a San Ace fan and has better electrical performance from the reviews I have seen.

Interesting point RE better quality caps and fan, I will need to verify this.
Do you know for a fact that the Enermax doesn't have comparable caps/fan?
Can you clarify what you mean by 'better electrical performance'?

One thing is that I haven't seen is both those exact models tested at the same place with the same equipment even tho there a few that have different wattage units of the same family tested. Since both have very good efficiency and most place them within a couple percent it really comes down to the equipment and individual samples I would guess.

That's a shame :(
I'd love to see the Modu87 600 and the X-650 tested in exactly the same environment.

Although I don't like how they rate their recommended PS's with silence being the main criteria I do like the way they do low load tests as far as efficiency goes at SPCR. Here are links the the Modu87+ 500W (http://www.silentpcreview.com/article1044-page4.html) and the X-650 (http://www.silentpcreview.com/article986-page4.html)

Thanks...
Hopefully this'll give me some basis for comparing all the important criteria (silence not being one of them for me).

[Travis]

Can you clarify what you mean by 'better electrical performance'?

Seasonic X has lower ripple than Enermax Modu87+, but that's the difference between "Excellent" and "Pretty Good". ;)

Regarding silence, although Modu87+'s Appollish fan doesn't stop at low temperature, it's already inaudible, and at high loads it's notiably quieter. Since other fans in your PC will be MUCH louder then, pratically it won't make any difference to you. Both are VERY quiet. You should expect better longevity from San Ace, for its ball bearing, and it almost never rotates. ;)

The two are very similar in every regard.

[jalyst]

Yeah as you point out comparative 'quietness' is a non-issue for me, all decent PSU's are quiet enough.
So you don't agree with claims of better caps in the X-650, just slightly lower ripple & slightly higher quality Fan?

[Travis]

Yeah as you point out comparative 'quietness' is really a non-issue for me.
So you don't agree with claims of better caps in the X-650, just slightly lower ripple & slightly higher quality Fan?

Oh I've forgotten. The caps used in X-650 is indeed better. The output filter of +12V on both units is a PI filter. On the second stage both units use a few e-lytic caps from Chemi-con (KZE series I guess). On the first stage both units use a number of Al-Conductive polymer capacitors (aka "solid caps"). Seasonic uses 10 Chemi-con PSC polymers (actually 10 for X-750, 8 for X-650), while Enermax uses only 3 or 4 Enesol/Matsuki polymers (Korean or Taiwanese). Also the primary caps in Seasonic unit has higher capacity.

Regarding the fan, I don't think it's only of "slightly higher" quality. San Ace has a much more reliable bearing type so you'd expect better longevity. Enermax is (as they always are) very confident about the lifetime of their twister bearing (2x lifetime than 2-ball bearing they have claimed) but better take it with a grain of salt.

[jalyst]

Thanks for the further insights!

I must say if 'Engrish' is your second language...
Then your '2nd language' is better than many people's 1st language here in Oz! (Australia)

Thanks again.

[jalyst]

@Travis final question, I promise! ;)

Aside from a slightly better build quality overall & lower ripple...
Are the any other areas (aside from quietness) where the X-650 has an edge?

I've read some reviews but haven't seen anything notable.

[mdk777]

Aside from a slightly better build quality overall & lower ripple...
Are the any other areas (aside from quietness) where the X-650 has an edge?

No shinny gold bling Fan?

Seriously, what other metrics were you considering?

[jalyst]

Seriously, what other metrics were you considering?

All the core ones relating to the nature/quality of their power delivery.
So far the only areas highlighted where one bests the other is:
1) X-650 has lower ripple
2) enermax is slightly more efficient (normal use) -which seemed negligible in reviews I read

Thank-you very much.

[Travis]

@Travis final question, I promise! ;)

Aside from a slightly better build quality overall & lower ripple...
Are the any other areas (aside from quietness) where the X-650 has an edge?

I've read some reviews but haven't seen anything notable.

The soldering side of X is neat and clean compared to most consumer power supplies at this wattage. The Modu87+... is an "Enermax" kind of build quality, that is, nice components, mediocre soldering, could be better, could be worse.

[jalyst]

Thanks for that Travis,
But I'm actually asking about the remaining performance metrics, not the build quality (see post #35).
Sorry for any confusion, only if you know or have time!

Thanks/Good-night.