Weird restarts from Antec Truepower 410w

[Bun-Bun]

Ok I have had this thing for years and its pretty loaded up but it has been running stable with no problems (2.8 prescot @ 3.5 on air)

Anywho the problems started when I was testing out my DPST relay on the back power plug on the PSU (has a 6a molex on teh back of the PSU). What would happen is without a load and just the relay the computer would restart if I disengaged the relay. However once I put a load on it it was fine. I could engage the relay and disengage all I want without restarts but... take the fans off... switch the relay coil off and the computer would restart...

Anyone have any clue as to what would cause this?

[jonnyGURU]

It might be seeing that load as a short.

Check your voltages and see if there's a sudden drop in the voltage when you switch the relay off and on. If you can check that with a DMM on the back side of that Molex connector, that's even better.

If there seems to be no voltage drop, which would cause a drop in voltage, open up the PSU and check for swollen caps. Heck... even if there IS a voltage drop, I'd go ahead and check for swollen caps just for the heck of it.

[Bun-Bun]

It might be seeing that load as a short.

Check your voltages and see if there's a sudden drop in the voltage when you switch the relay off and on. If you can check that with a DMM on the back side of that Molex connector, that's even better.

If there seems to be no voltage drop, which would cause a drop in voltage, open up the PSU and check for swollen caps. Heck... even if there IS a voltage drop, I'd go ahead and check for swollen caps just for the heck of it.

I know I should have bought a DMM yesterday... I will open up the PSU later and take a peek inside. I was wondering if it could have anything to do with the relay coil being such a small load. What does a swollen cap look like?

[Oklahoma Wolf]

http://www.badcaps.net/ident/

[Super Nade]

There could be a voltage bounce from the relay which is mimicing the PS_ON signal.

[Bun-Bun]

Ok... its a major pain with my setup but I guess I will rip out the PSU and crack her open. Be back in a while... hopefully lol

[CAD4466HK]

Is it me, or should your TP 410 be a TP 430, and no, I'm not trying to start something either:p

[Bun-Bun]

Is it me, or should your TP 410 be a TP 430, and no, I'm not trying to start something either:p

Yeah I got corrected. I think the 410 came from some review or something that said the max output was really 410... but yes it is a TP 430w that is over 4 years old right now, I got it used back in 2003.

http://pics.livejournal.com/bun_bun/pic/000396q0

That's the PSU

http://pics.livejournal.com/bun_bun/pic/0003a3gy

With the cover off.

http://pics.livejournal.com/bun_bun/pic/00036y9d

First set of caps look ok.

http://pics.livejournal.com/bun_bun/pic/000376q0

Second set is hard to see but they look ok.

http://pics.livejournal.com/bun_bun/pic/00038w3p

This set... yeah. Pictures says all.

So this explains a lot. I fried a 2.8 M0 proccesor a few weeks ago... earlier this year the temps rose by 5°C for no reason and I just blamed my old heatsink...

Anywho im still running it and its stable (somehow kinda maybe I dunno) and need a new PSU obviously.

Looking at a local retailer... they have a Coolermaster eXtremePower 430w for $32 CAD. Think that would be suitable replacement?

My system specs:

Prescott 2.8 @ 3.5 GHZ 1.28v (250FSB 1:1)
Abit IC7-Max3
2 GB OCZ Gold XTC PC-4000
4 maxtor HD's (2 x 80's& 2 x 250's)
Coolermaster Aerogate II and 2 x Cooldrive 6's
Audigy 2 ZS
Asus TV Tuner
BFG 6600GT @ 565/650
Plextor PX-716SA
7 LED 80mm fans, some el wire, and a modded northbridge heatsink with the iceberq fan in it...

The antec seemed fine with it but obviously it wasnt. Should I look for something a bit beefier?

[CAD4466HK]

Those Pressies suck down alot of juice, and yours is OC to the gills;)

I would go with something a little more robust, such as the Corsair HX520,
that way you will be pretty much future proof ie: like if you want to add more drives or add a new GPU,CPU, ECT.:)

BTY=I have a TP 430 ,not modded like yours, pushing 8 drives and a ass load of fans and I use to have a 3.2E on it and it's still kicking

PS. If the HX520 is too pricey for you, try a Enhance/Sliverstone PSU, Strider or the like.

Nice Berber by the way;)

[Oklahoma Wolf]

Yipes... that Antec is the worst example of a CWT with bad caps since I saw the one with the blown primaries. Replace or recap it asap. Even that 5vsb cap is swelling :eek:

The Coolermaster should do, but wouldn't be my first choice. There isn't much at that price point that's any good.

[GalvanizedYankee]

http://www.theflyingpenguin.com/ > My Blog, scroll down to 9/17/05.
:D A HDD killer.

Bun-Bun, spring for a Silverstone 500W Element at the very least. The Corsair 520 is better and costs about $30~$40 more.

[Bun-Bun]

Those Pressies suck down alot of juice, and yours is OC to the gills;)

I would go with something a little more robust, such as the Corsair HX520,
that way you will be pretty much future proof ie: like if you want to add more drives or add a new GPU,CPU, ECT.:)

BTY=I have a TP 430 ,not modded like yours, pushing 8 drives and a ass load of fans and I use to have a 3.2E on it and it's still kicking

PS. If the HX520 is too pricey for you, try a Enhance/Sliverstone PSU, Strider or the like.

Nice Berber by the way;)

Berber?

It doesnt need to be future proof. Just needs something that is stable. As soon as im done my new build (still need $3500 to finish it and I lost my job :() then this system is going into a different case and getting put back to stock and maybe running 5 SATA drives in raid as my file server. All the flashy stuff will come out, just a couple 120mm fans to keep things cool.

[Bun-Bun]

Yipes... that Antec is the worst example of a CWT with bad caps since I saw the one with the blown primaries. Replace or recap it asap. Even that 5vsb cap is swelling :eek:

The Coolermaster should do, but wouldn't be my first choice. There isn't much at that price point that's any good.

Are CWT known for this? I was thinking of putting a TT850w in my new rig...

Which is the 5vsb? I only saw the two in that last pic, where are you seeing this?

I just read the review of corsair but I dont like those ribbon cables and I would like something thats fully sleeved... It's a shame that my nicely modded PSU is no more...

I was just thinking of getting that coolermaster for now because its so cheap until I get the money to buy a new case and turn this into my FS.

Its weird... I have the computer back together and its still stable...

[CAD4466HK]

Berber, your carpet:p

[Oklahoma Wolf]

Are CWT known for this? I was thinking of putting a TT850w in my new rig...

Which is the 5vsb? I only saw the two in that last pic, where are you seeing this?

The TT is ok - CWT is using Samxon in the high end models now. It's the ones full of Fuhjyyu that have this problem, which include most Antecs from the past 5 years or so.

5vsb caps are in the third pic - leftmost one (the output cap) is bulging.

[Bun-Bun]

Berber, your carpet:p

Ah yes... I hate my carpet but im only renting and can't do anything about that. And I wish I had more space so that I didn't have to work on my computer on the carpet...

Alas what will i do...

Is there a cheap but good modular power supply that is fully sleeved and doesnt look like ass?

[CAD4466HK]

This is all I will recomend without going too cheap and a lower wattage
I'm sure you can find cheaper;)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817194002

[Bun-Bun]

This is all I will recomend without going too cheap and a lower wattage
I'm sure you can find cheaper;)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817194002

So that would be this one from this site
http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=17503&vpn=ELT400AWT&manufacture=ENERMAX

Is 400watts enough do you think for my rig? Or should I spend the extra $40CAD and get the 500.

Is there any other PSU from www.ncix.com that anyone would recomend? It's a good site for me to get stuff from.

[CAD4466HK]

I still stand by the HX520, but you dont like the cables:o
The Liberty 500 would be fine for your rig, mabey your right about the 400w
not being enough, that all dependes on how hard you push that rig:)

[Oklahoma Wolf]

For the price of the Liberty 500W, you can get the Corsair 520W or Antec Neo HE 550W. Both of these are Seasonic made and would be better options than the Liberty IMO. The Corsair is the only one to use the good Japanese caps.

[Bun-Bun]

I still stand by the HX520, but you dont like the cables:o
The Liberty 500 would be fine for your rig, mabey your right about the 400w
not being enough, that all dependes on how hard you push that rig:)

Well it is overclock quite a bit but with the 430w TT everything is 24+ orthos stable while playing DVD movies and scaning the HD's etc...

And once it becomes my FS everything will be stock and most of the power draw will be gone and only 5 -8 HD's will be left as the main power draw.

its only $40 might as well get the 500w...

[CAD4466HK]

If your going to add more drives down the road, get the 500w:)

[Bun-Bun]

For the price of the Liberty 500W, you can get the Corsair 520W or Antec Neo HE 550W. Both of these are Seasonic made and would be better options than the Liberty IMO. The Corsair is the only one to use the good Japanese caps.

I can get the Antec Neo 500w locally for $118CAD

Fully sleeved, modular, pretty, Stable... pretty cheap. I think I have my new PSU...

[CAD4466HK]

For the price of the Liberty 500W, you can get the Corsair 520W or Antec Neo HE 550W. Both of these are Seasonic made and would be better options than the Liberty IMO. The Corsair is the only one to use the good Japanese caps.

I knew I would get flamed for suggesting a Liberty, should of stuck to my guns with the Corsair, cheap and modular, it was all I could think of:o

[Oklahoma Wolf]

Heh - Enermax hasn't really gotten me excited over anything they've offered in some time. Except the Galaxy that is. They still use questionable caps themselves in low end models.

Fully sleeved, modular, pretty, Stable... pretty cheap.

Don't forget "not a CWT design crammed with Fuhjyyu" ;)

[Bun-Bun]

Alright so its the Antec Neo 500w then?

EDIT: Too late, I bought a Antec Neo 550w from a local store.

[Bun-Bun]

http://pics.livejournal.com/bun_bun/pic/0003dybf

Theres the Antec in its new home. Runs cooler, helped me clean up my wires a bit, and now the light in my room doesnt flicker when I turn on the PSU :D


Sad that the 430w is no more and all of its mods to waste... ohwell

Thanks guys for your help and recomendation.

[Super Nade]

Can we see an Autopsy of the 430W ? :)

[GalvanizedYankee]

Since it's no good w/o a recap Nade and Bun-Bun might not want to get into that task. I bet a nice request via PM might get it for the cost of shipping, if he is in the lower 48. ;)

[Bun-Bun]

Can we see an Autopsy of the 430W ? :)

Well I tore it apart earlier and took some pics if you didnt see them...

I dont care enough to recap it. Not worth it to me I have no use of it. I'll just show it off at lan parties as one of my mods.

I live in canada so if someone really feels like fixing it...

[Bbq]

Send it to O.W. I think he lives in Saskatchewan. Then a quick re-cap, a test on the load tester, and the rest is history.

[Oklahoma Wolf]

He's not able to take any more recapping candidates though ;)

[Bun-Bun]

Send it to O.W. I think he lives in Saskatchewan. Then a quick re-cap, a test on the load tester, and the rest is history.

Im in Saskatchewan too!!!

He's not able to take any more recapping candidates though ;)

Aww....

[Oklahoma Wolf]

Im in Saskatchewan too!!!

I'm down in the southwest corner buried under 50 feet of snow ;)

[Bun-Bun]

So I have decided to use this blown PSU as my testing PSU for fans, led's and such (just cheap things) and I plugged it in last night and used a hair pin to bridge the PSU_on to ground and powered up a Logisys laser LED and a fan...

It worked ok but there was this loud buzzing sound coming from the PSU and I quickly unplugged everything and am hesitant to plug it back in.

What could this buzzing be caused by? Should I be concerned about it exploding into a fiery ball of flames?

[Oklahoma Wolf]

I wouldn't power that PSU up again unless it was recapped - from the sound of it, it could go pop at any time.

[Bun-Bun]

I wouldn't power that PSU up again unless it was recapped - from the sound of it, it could go pop at any time.

Ok good to know. Its weird though that it didn't make that sound when it was in the computer and from the looks of the caps its been like that for some time...

[Bun-Bun]

It might be seeing that load as a short.

Check your voltages and see if there's a sudden drop in the voltage when you switch the relay off and on. If you can check that with a DMM on the back side of that Molex connector, that's even better.

If there seems to be no voltage drop, which would cause a drop in voltage, open up the PSU and check for swollen caps. Heck... even if there IS a voltage drop, I'd go ahead and check for swollen caps just for the heck of it.

Ok I was just looking back on this and I am confused and I am not sure why. When I think of a drop in voltage I think of a difference in voltage like 12v to 11v. But then that next line if there is no voltage drop that would cause a drop in voltage... huh? Can someone please explain this too me as if I was a two year old (even though I took it electricity in college...)

[jonnyGURU]

Ok I was just looking back on this and I am confused and I am not sure why. When I think of a drop in voltage I think of a difference in voltage like 12v to 11v. But then that next line if there is no voltage drop that would cause a drop in voltage... huh? Can someone please explain this too me as if I was a two year old (even though I took it electricity in college...)

It's just a typo. I meant to say "if there's no voltage drop that would cause a reboot...."

[Bun-Bun]

It's just a typo. I meant to say "if there's no voltage drop that would cause a reboot...."

So no voltage drop as being the voltage being read as 0? meaning the PSU is seeing it as a short? And this leads to swollen caps how? (Sorry this is my needing to understand everything side...)

[jonnyGURU]

It doesn't. They're two different circumstances.

What I said, or meant to say, was:

If there seems to be no voltage drop, which would cause a reboot, open up the PSU and check for swollen caps.

So in that sentence, I am saying that the problem is either a voltage drop, which could be caused by a number of things, OR a problem with swollen caps.

Although failed caps can cause poor voltage regulation, I never said that the one was caused by the other, even with my typo.

[Bun-Bun]

oh so your saying if I measured a drop in voltage then the PSU is seeing the small load as a short and restarting. However if it still read 12v just fine then it would be failed caps. Right?

Now if its not too much to ask, how would failed caps cause the PSU to restart from the small load?

And the other way around why would the PSU see the small load as a short?

Esspecially since the restart was only on the relay load but if fans were added then it was fine. However the entire computer was still loading the PSU at the time so is the connetor on the back of the truepowers seperate somehow?

[jonnyGURU]

There's a lot of reasons that the swollen caps on the secondary could cause the reboot. Too high voltage, too low voltage, too much ripple, complete drop out in voltage. You name it. :D I try not to think too much about it. Swollen caps == problem. Period. Regardless of why or the symtpoms, the PSU needs to be replaced.

[Bun-Bun]

After thinking about this for awhile this is the conclusion ive come up in my head.

With such a small load (.065 amp) it is difficult for the voltage (why? I dont know...) to stabilize and could cause spikes or drops in voltages which would cause the PSU trip. Bad caps would worsen this by not stabilizing the voltage like it should. And thus with a load on the relay (switched from 12v-7v depending on state of relay coil) the small load was barely seen by the PSU and operated normally. And the back connector must be in someway seperated from the rest of the PSU if with out the fans it was unstable...

Am I anywhere close?

I still don't see how seeing no drop in voltage would lead you to it being caps... or even if there was a drop in voltage would suggest caps were fine... in my head caps could be bad in either situation due to the mysterious effects caused by them...

I really need to stop trying to understand electronics, fluid and thermo dynamics, and picking my new computer components all at the same time... my head hurts...lol

[GalvanizedYankee]

I am not being rude when I say; some serious study over at badcaps.net will do wonders.
Caps fail in several ways but the two that would be easyest to understand would be failing open or shorted. Thank god caps most often fail open, nothing gets damaged because it's like a circuit breaker. When caps fail shorted, big problems can arise.
Now, consider micro failures of opens or shorts. The cap is headed for total failure but is in an intermittent mod. ;)

[Bun-Bun]

I am not being rude when I say; some serious study over at badcaps.net will do wonders.
Caps fail in several ways but the two that would be easyest to understand would be failing open or shorted. Thank god caps most often fail open, nothing gets damaged because it's like a circuit breaker. When caps fail shorted, big problems can arise.
Now, consider micro failures of opens or shorts. The cap is headed for total failure but is in an intermittent mod. ;)

Not at all rude thats exactly what I need. I eager to learn as much as I can about anything I can. If I dont figure out my purpose in life at least I will have learned a lot.

I am just trying to understand the relationship between the small load and the restarts; the relationship between no drop in voltage and bad caps and drop in voltage suggesting ok caps (or maybe not) and small load being seen as a short and why. If that made any sense...

I will head over to badcaps later.