How do you reduce ripple?

[kimandsally]

Hi there congratulations on this new forum, I've had a few hours looking around and it's full of useful information already, having been a fan of jonnyguru's reviews though it's hardly surprising, also nice to see some great people from other forums here as well.

Anyway after reading most Power supply reviews I bought a OCZ GameXStream 700, I would have liked the Corsair 620 but at the time it wasn't available sad really because I would have much preferred that one but the supplier didn't stock it and the OCZ was a replacement for a Liberty that literally blew up taking out the RCD's in the house.

I notice the Epsillon and GameXStream both suffer high ripple and wondered if there was any components that could be changed to fix it or is it a design problem?

[jonnyGURU]

I'm not sure. Been trying to figure that out myself. Maybe someone should re-cap one and then we can test it again. :D

[kimandsally]

I'm not sure. Been trying to figure that out myself. Maybe someone should re-cap one and then we can test it again. :D

Do you have to return the test units? If not I would offer to recap one I'm handy enough with my soldering done loads of electronics work only I'm useless with the knowledge I just work from diagrams and do things other people have already done.

Thanks for the super quick response :)

[Oklahoma Wolf]

Maybe someone should re-cap one and then we can test it again. :D

Actually I was thinking about doing that on the 600W I sent you even before I knew about the ripple issue. IIRC, I couldn't find any good caps with the right diameter to replace the OST's in there.

[kimandsally]

Actually I was thinking about doing that on the 600W I sent you even before I knew about the ripple issue. IIRC, I couldn't find any good caps with the right diameter to replace the OST's in there.

Hey that would be great, I did seea guy who was offering to supply caps on here, I think, I cannot find it now, you might know though are you the same one who requents those forums?

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/index.php

I'd be really interested if this can be done and I don't mind helping with the costs if required.

[Oklahoma Wolf]

I frequent many forums... that's one of them ;)

I already have a recapping article planned for Antec... wouldn't be too much trouble to add a few to do an Epsilon. The problem is finding something to fit where the OST's are. The Capxon 1000uf caps on the output are the easy ones... was debating increasing the value on them.

[jonnyGURU]

I'll send the Epsilon back to you Wolf.

The OCZ is gone. Got totally disassembled and it aint going back together any time soon. ;)

[kimandsally]

Wow you lot don't mess around do you ;-) I think this will be very interesting to see what difference it makes, I've just been looking on here:
http://www.badcaps.net
To see if they might be able to suggest where to get the right size caps.

[Oklahoma Wolf]

I'll send the Epsilon back to you Wolf.

Cool - I'll do it and the Antec article at the same time and send everything back to you in one shot.

Edit - the problem caps in the FSP are 16v 2200uf 10mm if memory serves. Will look into recapping with 2700uf instead, since I'm pretty sure these are for the 12v rails.

[Bbq]

Oklahoma Wolf, I'm not sure if you know, but there are NO dielectric pads between 2 of the 3 fets//sinks, so 2 of them carry a hella punch.

This should be intresting.

[Oklahoma Wolf]

No shock there, pardon the pun :D

[kimandsally]

Hi did you get any further with the recapping yet/

[Oklahoma Wolf]

Not yet - haven't even gotten the units to work on yet.

[WeStSiDePLaYa]

to reduce powersupply ripple, recap the secondary side with high ripple current, low ESR caps. the caps being low ESR will help greatly.

panasonic FM series work great.


if your having troubles finding capacitors in the proper diameter,(which is often hard is psu's) first check to see if a 12.5mm can fit where the 10mm once was, often they can. if they cant, then another thing to do is, replace the 10v caps used on the 5v and 3.3v line with 6.3v caps.

this is only safe because the 5v and 3.3v line should never exceed 6.3v.

this should NEVER be done on the 12v line, as using a 10v cap on a 12v line will most likely result in a quick venting.


personally i replace all the secondary, and sometimes primary caps in my psu's with low esr caps from panasonic, nichicon, rubycon, or chemicon, depending what i can get to fit. i have found that it helps keep the voltage steady under load. i have not personally measured ripple as i do not have an o-scope, but others report lower ripple with quality caps, which makes much sense, since failed caps(when ESR shoots sky high) produces high ripple.

[jonnyGURU]

That's why I'm doing. Getting either Nippon/United Chemi-Con or Matsushita caps. And we know where 12.5mm will fit instead of 10mm, etc. I'm just trying to fly them in from Asia so I don't have to pay retail. :D

[WeStSiDePLaYa]

That's why I'm doing. Getting either Nippon/United Chemi-Con or Matsushita caps. And we know where 12.5mm will fit instead of 10mm, etc. I'm just trying to fly them in from Asia so I don't have to pay retail. :D

Digikey has good prices. you could get chemicon caps for what you need for about 50cents each.

or contact bigpope over at XS and he will send you some free samples of samxon. he sent me 2 dozen caps via airmail for free.:D if you go that way, ask if he has the GA series, its ESR is supposed to rival that of rubycon MBZ series.

[Oklahoma Wolf]

Digikey doesn't have a single large value cap in the size specs I need - they're a last resort if JG is unable to get them from his sources. I use Panny FM and UCC KY when I can.

[kimandsally]

Digikey doesn't have a single large value cap in the size specs I need - they're a last resort if JG is unable to get them from his sources. I use Panny FM and UCC KY when I can.

Hi again, glad to see it's progressing, can I ask if you would do a set of pictures going through the various stages?

This is something I'm really interested in because I think it's within my scope, I'm resonable with swapping components my problem is that I know next to nothing about electronics but I'm OK at following instructions, very slowly I'm picking bits up as I read more.

[Oklahoma Wolf]

That's the plan - have a few pics already, and am just waiting on the caps. Progress is being made :)

[irev210]

anyone know about these caps-

http://www.cde.com/catalogs/SXR.pdf

[madmat]

I know nothing about them but I can tell you that they'd only work on the secondary side as the top voltage is way too low. They need to be capable of 400Vdc for primary duties and those only do up to 100Vdc.

[jonnyGURU]

Mallory? Holy cow! Are they still around or is someone else just using their name?

The company we now know as "Duracell" used to be "Mallory" until Proctor and Gamble bought them in 1996.

You may not remember, but that "Mallory" logo used to be right over the word "Dura."

Mallory made a few different electronics, like flashlights, switches, etc. and did have caps called "Duracap" (go figure) but I hadn't seen those since I was a kid.

They still use the Mallory brand for their non-alkaline batteries: http://www.duracell.com/procell/products/mallory.asp

[madmat]

I remember Mallory batteries, flashlights and such but I wasn't sure if the caps were of the same family. There's several Mallory's: Mallory batteries, Mallory ignitions, Mallory metal for balancing crankshafts...I hate jumping to conclusions because it's too easy to slip and bust my ass.

[jonnyGURU]

Yeah. But the logo is identical.

Unless it's a rip off company like Rulycon. ;)

[GalvanizedYankee]

anyone know about these caps-

http://www.cde.com/catalogs/SXR.pdf

Ask over at http://www.badcaps.net/ > Forums. Please give Galvanized the referral if you register there. :)
On a quick look / search I found no mention of Mallory caps.

madmat, it's been > 10 years since I have heard or read the term mallory metal and it's been 5 years since I ported a head.

[Chilly]

You knoe what might be intresting, if someone made a guide on how to re-cap PSU's with better caps, perhaps how to build your own using an older psu as a guide, I know Oklahoma Wolf is make a quide on rebuilding antec true powers.

Seems to me if you have a good base, can you make a better output PSU(recapping a decent 480watt, and making it a better 650watt?)

Maybe I'm just off my rocker :P

[jonnyGURU]

That's the whole point of this:

http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73

We have load and ripple results of both PSU's and will soon have them for the units after the cap job.

[Chilly]

You knoe what might be intresting, if someone made a guide on how to re-cap PSU's with better caps, perhaps how to build your own using an older psu as a guide, I know Oklahoma Wolf is make a quide on rebuilding antec true powers.

Seems to me if you have a good base, can you make a better output PSU(recapping a decent 480watt, and making it a better 650watt?)

Maybe I'm just off my rocker :P

That's the whole point of this:

http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73

We have load and ripple results of both PSU's and will soon have them for the units after the cap job.

Oh :p I thought he was just rebuilding them for the sake of getting them to work again, sounds good. I shall moniter that thread then, sorry for my momentary slip of stupidity and ignorance. :wall:

[Oklahoma Wolf]

Naw... they were both working (if you can call it that) already. The Neo's results will be most interesting since the Fuhjyyus showed no outward signs of failure yet.

[Lenny_Nero]

I remember Mallory batteries, flashlights and such but I wasn't sure if the caps were of the same family
I think I still have an old Mallory in one of my Flukes.
In the past I used to work a lot with Mallory parts on the HT side of car electrics, lots of distributors and coils that sort of thing, never seen the Mallory metal... I always drill off, not add. I also did not know that they became Duracell, that is a surprise I just thought they got lost like some companies do.

Did anything come of the re-capping/ ripple testing ?

[jonnyGURU]

Did anything come of the re-capping/ ripple testing ?

http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1450

[GalvanizedYankee]

When you MUST balance and can not remove metal, Mallory metal is added to achive balance. It is about as heavy as tungsten.

The recapping/ripple article is on our front page.

[ianm2]

In the audio world, and on simple power supplies, ie transformer, rectifier, series choke perhaps, and shunt ( to ground) capacitor, ripple is reduced by larger value capacitors, and bigger chokes. Trouble is, too large, and you can stress the parts preceeding them, as the bigger the cap, the more the peak charging current drawn, which can be very high indeed.

Also, voltage regulators( which make the voltage regular, as a matter of fact, ie unchanging), which aren't present per se. on a smps (done mostly by the pwm, which I don't understand the workings of yet) ...I did 2 yrs of a degree in electronics over 10 yrs ago, and didn't know what I was really doing, I am only now more understanding, but have a long way to go still.

I havne't done too much reading lately, a lot of my knowledge is over a year old, so I am very rusty, but I think I am correct in saying that under harsh conditions, ie high current draw..ie your computer parts being stressed, the regulation and ripple will be worst, obviously, as the capacitors are discharging their energy store more, so the droop/sag will be more pronounced.

So bear in mind that its largely under extreme conditions that the differences in psu's become pronounced, and yes electronic design has a huge bearing, so does components. So in the rare instances that you are demanding say 850 watts, it may be the case that such conditions make it irrelevant for most people, then again, it may be common in your rig due to useage and component parts, ie demanding chips in the cpu, and graphics, etc., that such powers are drawn, so you have to have the best possible, which makes sense, ie you can never have enough.

There is little you can do about design, the people who do that are very clever, and can do it in their sleep, and amateurs such as us MOSTLY can't do better, but yes, we can improve components based upon cost decisions. Bear in mind tho', that also time is money, and it takes more time to engineer something to a high standard, so the design may be the primary factor here, ie. its just not worth trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

Another caveat is, it may be more worthwhile due to time and hassle, simply to buy an overkill psu, than get a cheap one and improve it, thinking it can be done on the cheap, remember its time and hassle, which factored in, may not make it worthwhile, still its good to play and learn.

I think with electrolytic caps by and large, that you get what you pay for. I never got into finding out too much about low esr, lowest is best of course, and its at the edge of my knowledge on ripple ratings, so it may be a smaller cap with better ripple may be better than a sledgehammer big one, but my instincts would say go with the bigger value secondary caps, and possibly primary, which probably is of significant importance, as it sets the tone for what follows.

Voltage wise, of course, is vital, it may be possible to reduce voltage ratings if they are way overdone, say 50volts cap on a 3 volt rail, but even so, better safe than sorry.

If there is a guinea pig of a power supply that is expendable, it may be worth doubling the value of capacitance, but controlled, ie on the say primary first, or one of the rails, and seeing if that is fruitful.

[GalvanizedYankee]

The rule of thumb over at Badcaps (site is down for work ATM) goes like this.
Capacitance can be increased one value up.
Voltage can be reduced but must stay above the working voltage.
ESR can always be reduced if possible.

willawake is a very helpful tech at Badcaps. He put this site together.
http://www.capacitorlab.com/index.htm


I am far from expert on any of this. :)

[Lenny_Nero]

When you MUST balance and can not remove metal, Mallory metal is added to achive balance. It is about as heavy as tungsten.

The recapping/ripple article is on our front page.
Ok, I understand, we just always have a load of excess to remove anyway. I was only trying to explain to a customer the other day that it would not be best for him to have the lightest flywheel we could do, because he wanted to drive it on the road everyday and that there is a reason for the weight.

I did have a search around after I made the post, should have done that first. As for changing caps I have only gone after caps for their sound quality in stuff I have changed them. This is an interesting area.