Silverstone ST85ZF vs PCPandC Silencer 750 [Archive]

View Full Version : Silverstone ST85ZF vs PCPandC Silencer 750

riiaku

10-15-2006, 02:24 AM

which one would you choose for a core 2 duo gaming system with a ati radeon 1900XT 256 possibly going crossfire soon, 2 HDs raid 0, asus p5w dh deluxe, E6400 core 2, ocz plat rev 2 pc6400 2 gigs, 2 dvd drives, 2x 120mm fans, 2x 80mm fans, upgrading to creative xfi fatalyty, cooler master stacker case, 2x 17" LCDs, soon upgradeing to a 32" LCD tv to use as computer monitor, saitek eclipse, and logitech mx1000, all hooked up to a denon avr 2805 receiver, with energy, jbl, and infinity 5.1 sound system hooked up.

Oklahoma Wolf

10-15-2006, 02:44 AM

Silverstone :)

riiaku

10-15-2006, 06:46 AM

Hutch

10-15-2006, 08:12 AM

Why ask for an opinion when you clearly already have your mind made up?

EDIT: Let's take it easy on the new folks. We'll start flaming them at five posts. ;) -- jonny

jonnyGURU

10-15-2006, 10:00 AM

why silverstone? i read in another forum that the silencer has 60 amps on one 12v rail which is awesome whereas the silverstone has 4 12v rails with 18 amps each, so if one fails because of overload then that will cause the system to restart or crash, but with a single 12v rail with 60 amps that is more than enough for it to handle any load, especially since pc power and cooling PSU's are built very well. so what do you think? i keep getting different opinions.

Either someone in one of these other forums s ignorant, finds it hard to explain things or you just misunderstood what they were telling you.

Single 12V rails have their advantages when it comes to potentially overloading any one rail, but the picture isn't actually painted the way it seems to have been painted for you.

You still have one 12V rail, but groups of connectors that are split up into separate rails, each with their own OCP, or "Over Current Protection." the rail isn't more prone to "failure," as you seem to suggest. But the PSU could shut down if the current exceeds what that rail is rated for.

Typically, PCI-e connectors are on their own rail, which gives those connectors more than ample power for most video cards (video cards being the biggest power hog in your system.) This is why more rails (like three, four or five) are better than two. You can split more connectors up across more rails, giving any one rail access to more power.

Therefore, there's no issue with an ST85ZF and overloading any particular rail. It has four PCI-e connectors spread across three different 12V rails.

The ST85ZF is rated for X1950 Crossfire. ATI tests these in actual rig and it's very hard to pass, so if they say it works.. it works! :)

riiaku

10-15-2006, 04:27 PM

Why ask for an opinion when you clearly already have your mind made up?

EDIT: Let's take it easy on the new folks. We'll start flaming them at five posts. ;) -- jonny

ok you obviously missed my point. I said "why silverstone" at the beginning of the paragraph, and then "so what do you think? i keep getting different opinions" at the end. Jonny Guru understood what i was trying to ask, A SECOND OPINION, silverstone was my first choice originally. Try to be a little bit more perceptive before you start insulting people please.

EDIT: I'll try to refrain from flaming you ok? lol j/k

riiaku

10-15-2006, 04:30 PM

Either someone in one of these other forums s ignorant, finds it hard to explain things or you just misunderstood what they were telling you.

Single 12V rails have their advantages when it comes to potentially overloading any one rail, but the picture isn't actually painted the way it seems to have been painted for you.

You still have one 12V rail, but groups of connectors that are split up into separate rails, each with their own OCP, or "Over Current Protection." the rail isn't more prone to "failure," as you seem to suggest. But the PSU could shut down if the current exceeds what that rail is rated for.

Typically, PCI-e connectors are on their own rail, which gives those connectors more than ample power for most video cards (video cards being the biggest power hog in your system.) This is why more rails (like three, four or five) are better than two. You can split more connectors up across more rails, giving any one rail access to more power.

Therefore, there's no issue with an ST85ZF and overloading any particular rail. It has four PCI-e connectors spread across three different 12V rails.

The ST85ZF is rated for X1950 Crossfire. ATI tests these in actual rig and it's very hard to pass, so if they say it works.. it works! :)

Here is the link to what the other guy told me, please read this and tell me what I misunderstood. Thank you for your help.
http://www.sapphiretech.com/en/forums/showthread.php?p=45104#post45104

jonnyGURU

10-15-2006, 04:44 PM

He's right and wrong.

He seems to say that quad rail is good for multiple cards because each card is on it's own rail, but then he says that it's bad for one card because all of the load is on one rail.

The Silverstone has quad 12V rails, rated at 18A each. This is great when used in an SLI or Crossfire setup. Each card gets it's own rail, and each card operates a little above 1/2 full capacity, since they are sharing the graphics load. The problem you run into with a single card is that you are placing 100% of the load on a single 12V rail.

That's confusing.

It is true that any one card is going to draw more power than each card in a Crossfire set up, but no one video card, even an X1950, is going to need more than 18A. More like 10A. So whether you have one or two of them, it doesn't matter.

The PCI-e connectors on the ST85ZF are labeled as to what rail their load is on. So you could put one on one rail with nothing else, or split them up across two different rails. Either way, you have 18A to play with. MORE than enough.

Personally, I would go ahead and put both cards on the same rail because I doubt even both cards together need more than 18A, but if it doesn't work out there's two other PCI-e connectors on two other rails to choose from. So no matter what, there's no way you're going to overload that PSU. ;)

riiaku

10-15-2006, 04:59 PM

He's right and wrong.

He seems to say that quad rail is good for multiple cards because each card is on it's own rail, but then he says that it's bad for one card because all of the load is on one rail.

That's confusing.

It is true that any one card is going to draw more power than each card in a Crossfire set up, but no one video card, even an X1950, is going to need more than 18A. More like 10A. So whether you have one or two of them, it doesn't matter.

The PCI-e connectors on the ST85ZF are labeled as to what rail their load is on. So you could put one on one rail with nothing else, or split them up across two different rails. Either way, you have 18A to play with. MORE than enough.

Personally, I would go ahead and put both cards on the same rail because I doubt even both cards together need more than 18A, but if it doesn't work out there's two other PCI-e connectors on two other rails to choose from. So no matter what, there's no way you're going to overload that PSU. ;)

awesome, thank you, is there any benefit to having one 12v rail with 60amps on it? or disadvantages?

Is overclock3d.net a reliable source for psu reviews? cause they did a review on the silverstone and the pcpandc. They also did a review on a Tagen 1100W psu that was awesome, EMI/RMI shielded cables, excellent voltage regulations, they had it on newegg for 270 and now its gone. That would be perfect.

I know your reviews are more detailed but is overclock3d a good source? Sorry to bombard you with questions.

jonnyGURU

10-15-2006, 05:09 PM

The advantages of a single 12V rail is that there's no way you can overload that one rail. But if you have four ample rails and ample total output, it really doesn't make that much difference, plus you get rail to rail noise filtering and the safety of components on one 12V rail being "safe" if something on another 12V rail were to short.

Overclock3D I'm not familiar with, but how do they test their PSU's? It's cool if they test the PSU in a real machine. But sometimes you have guys that put the PSU in a hardcore rig like LegitReviews does, while other times you've got the guy throwing the PSU in a Socket A machine with an AGP card! ;)

Oklahoma Wolf

10-15-2006, 05:16 PM

Overclock3D I'm not familiar with, but how do they test their PSU's?

Custom built load tester and multimeter from the looks of it.

Edit - looks like the "load tester" is unable to vary the load much at all. Barely a step away from running it in a computer and taking readings. Haven't seen any info on the load tester itself, or how it does the loading.

riiaku

10-15-2006, 06:23 PM

davidhammock200

10-16-2006, 02:21 AM

riiaku

10-16-2006, 05:42 AM

wow that is actually a really good point, i just dont see why its better to buy a silverstone with 4 12v rails over a single 12v rail silencer, why is the silverstone better than a single 12v rail silencer.

jonnyGURU

10-16-2006, 07:52 AM

ok then, silverstone 850 watt it is then. thank you.
EDIT: you should read what technic 3d wrote on the st85zf. Apparently it can run up to 1043 watts on full load without removing the ocp thing, this psu is amazing.

That's what it says on the Silverstone label; that it can run up to 1043 peak at 20C. But that's peak, so that means it can only do it for about 10 seconds.

Got a link? Did Technic actually load it to 1043W or are they just quoting the box?

madmat

10-16-2006, 11:50 AM

If the "next gen" GPU's really do demand +12V@20A or more from their PCIe connectors,
then we may be stuck using 2x GPU rails for just one GPU, due to OCP on those rails,
that is why, until we know the final truth about these GPU's,
I believe single rail PSU's like the PC P&C 750 are the better bet.

Dave ;)

I personally wouldn't be adverse to poppping the top on a PSU and tying three rails together on a quad rail PSU so that the drives, mobo and PCI-e slots are all on one large rail and leave the CPU on it's own dedicated rail. Warranty? I doan need no stinkin' warranty!

Sphere

10-16-2006, 12:33 PM

This may be a bit off topic, so feel free to move it.........

On the issue of next gen video cards, in all honesty, do you really think those requirements are true? presonally I have a very difficult time believing they are.

Unless I'm missing the boat(wouldn't be the first time :D )anyone wishing to run that card (8800GTX) with a multi rail psu would be S.O.L. if it required 20 amps on the pci-e adapter. I find that incredibly hard to believe that would be the case, meaning only a small percentage would have a viable unit to power said card(s)

I've been a slave to video cards for way too many years, and each generations rumored requirements have always been higher and higher , and off the mark of what the reality has shown.

I won't dismiss the rumors completely, just finding it a bit unlikely.......what's your opinions? Am I in the minority here? I'd like to hear the rest of your opinions;)

Sphere

jonnyGURU

10-16-2006, 12:46 PM

This may be a bit off topic, so feel free to move it.........

Off topic and already in discussion in another thread:

http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12

But that's ok. ;)

madmat

10-16-2006, 12:50 PM

If the card is requiring a 450W total PSU which typically only puts out 30A max on the 12V I really doubt that they'd expect the rest of the PC to run effectively on a shared 10A between the CPU, mobo and drives. I'm figuring that the card would pull down around the same wattage requirements as a 7950GX2 for the GTX flavor and between the GX2 and a GT for the GT flavor 8800.

I think it's a lot of alarmist hoopla personally.

riiaku

10-16-2006, 05:42 PM

That's what it says on the Silverstone label; that it can run up to 1043 peak at 20C. But that's peak, so that means it can only do it for about 10 seconds.

Got a link? Did Technic actually load it to 1043W or are they just quoting the box?

yes i have the link.
http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=de&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&langpair=de%7Cen&u=http://technic3d.de/index.php%3Fsite%3Darticle%26action%3Darticle%26a% 3D328%26p%3D6&prev=/language_tools
http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=de&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&langpair=de%7Cen&u=http://technic3d.de/index.php%3Fsite%3Darticle%26action%3Darticle%26a% 3D328%26p%3D7&prev=/language_tools
you can translate the website into english then go into the page of efficiency and you will find it.

jonnyGURU

10-16-2006, 07:15 PM

Umm....

For 846W available power needed the ST85ZF 1'043W, which results in a outstanding efficiency of 81.1%.

They were pulling 1043W from the wall. The PSU wasn't PRODUCING 1043W of power. 846W DC / 1043W AC = 81.1%. :wall:

riiaku

10-18-2006, 02:59 AM

Umm....

They were pulling 1043W from the wall. The PSU wasn't PRODUCING 1043W of power. 846W DC / 1043W AC = 81.1%. :wall:

yeah i realized that after i was copying down the links.

riiaku

10-18-2006, 07:38 AM

hey jonny u might want to check back the forum that i referreed u too, and what the other guy had to say, hes got some good points, and ones that made me wonder about you.
http://www.sapphiretech.com/en/forums/showthread.php?p=45104#post45104

jonnyGURU

10-18-2006, 08:14 AM

...and ones that made me wonder about you.

You make some posts that make me wonder about you. ;) You realize that you're border line troll here, right?

This is no conspiracy, so you can drop trying to plot me and Pegasus against each other. I'm not AGAINST single 12V rail PSU's, so there's no "Hmmmm.... Let's wonder about Jon's motives" in Pegasus's post.

Yes, my "ultimate PSU" is a single 12V rail. I never said, ever, that I am "against" single 12V rail PSU's. I just don't like fan boys and misinformation. Do you really think you, I or Pegasus are that much smarter than the engineers at the PSU factories? If so... I need to hire a scout! :D

I'm playing devil's advocate, if you will. All I'm saying is there is still GOOD reason for GOOD multiple rail PSU's. And PSU manufacturers, like Silverstone for example, are trying to layout connectors as best as they can to maintain those multiple rails and still support high end graphic cards.

So... In response to Pegasus (sorry to Pegasus if this is feeding the troll and you're getting dragged into this, but.....)

1. Yes, I'm talking about multi-rail PSU's

2 & 3. Yes, "typically" is a keyword here. But if you bothered to look at almost ANY PSU manual you would see that what connectors are where because they're labeled in the manual. Most are tagged at the connector with either a flag or the rail number silk screened on the connector itself. The rest actually have color coded wires, like yellow/blue or yellow/green, etc. so you know what connector goes where.

I can't say I disagree with Pegasus about it being a pain in the butt having to "hunt down" or use "shotgun" technics to find out what connector is on what rail. But the only PSU's that I've had, that "claimed" to be multi-12V rail, that weren't properly labeled, that I had to OPEN UP to figure out what connector went to what rail because the connectors weren't labeled and/or all of the 12V wires were solid yellow color, turned out to be SINGLE 12V RAIL PSU's!!! (Antec Trio, for example.)

4. I'm not sure what Pegasus's point is here. YES, a single card is going to use more juice than each card when used in Crossfire, but there IS NO LIST of recommended PSU's for single card use because a single card still uses SIGNIFICANTLY LESS power than Crossfire. It's not half, no. But it's a lot less and it's a lot less than any one rail is capable of. You're only talking about a 10A load maximum. Hell, PCI Express specifications state that you CAN NOT deliver more than 150W to a single card. Up to 75W via the slot (which is typically on another rail.) Hard drives are only 2A, fans only .7A. You can add this up 6 ways to sunday and probably not exceed the single rail on even most dual 12V rail PSU's!! It's when you're running Crossfire and effectively have an 18A requirement just for your GPU that you have to question whether or not a 12V rail only capable of 18 or 20A is right for you.

Now quit trolling. ;)

jonnyGURU

10-18-2006, 10:32 AM

Oh.. and I don't doubt Pegasus has more experience with video cards than I. He is moderator of a video card manufacturer's forums after all.

Maybe instead of dealing with trolls, he can drop me a line and I can send him some of the PSU's I've already reviewed and he can try them out with different card combinations (I'm assuming Sapphire hooks him up with cards, of course.)

I think that would be more productive than trolling and plotting forum admins against each other. :D

burebista

10-18-2006, 10:55 AM

riiaku is not your PSU fault here. We have a X1900XTX overclocked like hell and he was fine on a S-12 330.
Your card need ~9A (http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/power-noise_4.html) from +12V rail so you have a long way until you reach 18A on 12V1. Oh but wait, you have another 14A available from other rail. lol